Anyone know the true history of the Matsunosuke GinRin fleck?

[aquitori]

Anyone know the true history of the Matsunosuke GinRin fleck? Which bloodline did it originate from?

[Redfrick]

I was curious about this question. Anyone know the true origins of it, DickB?

[dick benbow]

It's referred to as Matsunosuke Gin. Toshio and his older brother have hung on to the bloodline that was developed by their father. When it made it's appearance there was much to do in the judging circles about whether those koi should be entered as gin rin hence the more than 3 lines of GR rule.
I found one of toshio's tosai sanke's this year with it, so I had to get it. I;m not sure what it is but I can almost bet that the skin will be good on the koi as it matures. There seems to be a genetic link. I just love that on the koi
and like Mike M I'm not a GR fan ( member the olde brill-creme ads..." a lil dab el do ya.." ) Quess that's how I feel about matsunosuke Gin. The Olson's have a male with Matsunosuke Gin on it, that Mat at Nisei bred that is awsome! As to where the dad got the parents from etc, I have never learned.....just grateful both sons have held on to the genetics.

[Russell Peters]

I don't know the whole story either, just that Toshio said it was introduced to create quality.

[schildkoi]

By Peter and Tim Waddington. No gin rin koi were used to produce this "effect." The "gin" appears due to the breeding efforts of Toshio Sakai to produce higher quality skin through the more abundant/visible fukurin found in metallics (such as ogons). Unless something got lost in the translation from Toshio, it is believed that mettalic genes were used through either direct breeding or indirect (subsequent generations from mettalics) that were then cross bred with his Matsunoske sanke line.

Am I positive? Nope....many things get "lost" in translations.

Steve

[Danjols]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow It's referred to as Matsunosuke Gin. Toshio and his older brother have hung on to the bloodline that was developed by their father. When it made it's appearance there was much to do in the judging circles about whether those koi should be entered as gin rin hence the more than 3 lines of GR rule. I found one of toshio's tosai sanke's this year with it, so I had to get it. I;m not sure what it is but I can almost bet that the skin will be good on the koi as it matures. There seems to be a genetic link. I just love that on the koi and like Mike M I'm not a GR fan ( member the olde brill-creme ads..." a lil dab el do ya.." ) Quess that's how I feel about matsunosuke Gin. The Olson's have a male with Matsunosuke Gin on it, that Mat at Nisei bred that is awsome! As to where the dad got the parents from etc, I have never learned.....just grateful both sons have held on to the genetics.

Dick, your forgot one, "Wild Thing"

[dick benbow]

But I figured it was a stealth fish that will come out of no where in future years to delight the show crowds. But as they say....the sceret is out now....

I believe Toshio's Dad originally started with Ogon to begin with, so it makes sense that what they built initially would be used again in different color varieties. Toshio is very famous for doing this....

[Danjols]

Dick,
One of the best examples of this type of skin was on the GC at
the Portland Show this year. Very beautiful on the red. Just happen to
be my Bday gift from Sharon.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow But I figured it was a stealth fish that will come out of no where in future years to delight the show crowds. But as they say....the sceret is out now.... I believe Toshio's Dad originally started with Ogon to begin with, so it makes sense that what they built initially would be used again in different color varieties. Toshio is very famous for doing this....

I had heard that Toshio's father had got his original stock of Ogon from Oldman "Ogawa"...man years ago, before Nakayama started running the farm.

[JasPR]

This trait goes back to the foundation stock of Matsunosuke the senior. Toshio tells the story of how he would, as a young boy, sneak out to the monthly carp breeders meeting at the community center and listen from outside the open window to the village breeders talk about what they were doing at the time. This included his father's efforts at the time.
At that time, the fish of Niigata carried what was then known as Niigata gin. This was an attractive gin on a scale but very unattractive as general appointment in that it was all over the fish and very hard to congregate. Eventually the southern part of the country came up with more uniform ginrin specimens while most energy was directed towards surpressing the stray Niigata gin in the north. But good is good and this was the same skin that produced great fukurin and thick beni and sumi of depth. So while some were breeding the general trait out of gosanke, Matsunosuke senior used a look of skin and body shape to concentrate the traits, of which one was a genetically linked strip of gin scales going back to the foundation stock with niigata gin.
At one point, as the ZNA judging system fixed gosanke standards ( especially kohaku) stray ginrin was considered a distraction and hurt an individual koi in competition somewhat. But the Matsunosuke sanke with the classic body was expected to have a flash or stip of ginrin on tail tube or along the body as it was a tolerated component of a greater 'silky' skin type. Great debates took place around this exception and eventually ZNA came up with a specific number of rows a ginrin must have to be a ginrin. - JR