seminar topic choices

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR In truth, all koi have a moment in the sun where they will never look better. Some fish finish as youngsters and others take 8 years to complete the look the former took only 10 months of life to achieve. All koi are therefore the 'cut flower' that grew to a bloom and at some point in time begins to wilt and fade.

BINGO!!! There we have it. That proves tosai are not so worthless. Without tosai that finish as tosai the Baby Champs of the world wouldn't look so great. Sure they will degrade by age 2 or 3 but it DID have its moment in the sun. Nothing worng with that.

Let me be clear on something. I am fully aware that for the long term tosai are a poor investment but like the tech stocks of the 90s they are fun while they last. I buy tosai and nisai. My long term koi are the nisai whle the tosai are fun and offer a learning experience. I also think that Dick is aware of all of this and might even teach it in his seminar. But I haven't been to one of his seminars so I wouldn't know. I wouldn't mind going to a seminar entitled "How to pick a baby or young champ" though cuz thats where I play with my koi buying budget .

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR "However, there are many people other than Steve who buy tosai with the hopes of a getting a koi that will develop into an adult and maintain the characteristics of its type." what does this mean? JR

I think Dan answered this question well, but would only add that many new hobbyists would very much like to know how to pick a tosai that will retain it’s beni so they do not end up with a shiro muji or bekko, even if the quality of the beni and its other attributes would not land it in the winners circle,

It boils down to this, if people are buying tosai, and they are, then it makes sense to teach tosai selection unless:

1. there are no criteria which can be meaningfully applied to selecting tosai; or

2. there are no criteria which can be meaningfully applied to selecting tosai that can be distinguished from the criteria used to select any other aged koi.

For my part, unless someone can demonstrate that either of those premises is true, I cannot accept the argument in opposition and I will not drink the water.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond I think Dan answered this question well, but would only add that many new hobbyists would very much like to know how to pick a tosai that will retain it’s beni so they do not end up with a shiro muji or bekko, even if the quality of the beni and its other attributes would not land it in the winners circle, It boils down to this, if people are buying tosai, and they are, then it makes sense to teach tosai selection unless: 1. there are no criteria which can be meaningfully applied to selecting tosai; or 2. there are no criteria which can be meaningfully applied to selecting tosai that can be distinguished from the criteria used to select any other aged koi. For my part, unless someone can demonstrate that either of those premises is true, I cannot accept the argument in opposition and I will not drink the water.

Carl,
I'll ask you the question, "Name one criteria in selecting Tosai that is not or cannot be the same criteria in other ages of Koi."...except with better chances for favorable results in older koi. If you can name one, its beyond what I can think of tonight. Thus, why single out and use "selecting tosai" instead of selecting "koi" (based on developement) without any misleading innuendo that "selecting tosai" can imply?

Com'on Carl, take a little sip.

Steve

[Dan Blatt]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Thanks Dan, but back on subject, can you snap a shot for tomorrow so we can see the sex and advancement of that tosai that began our conversation? How large is it at 40 months? JR

Sorry.... weekend is already committed. Not sure of size as I have not bowled any of my koi in the last two years. Has grown some but not alot as I don't feed heavily due to the fact I only have 5000 gallons occupied by 15 koi. Secondly I have never aspired to have a pond full of larger jumbo type koi. Not my cup of tea.
I did provide photos of another showa. I feel I have already illustrated the point I was trying to make.

[ChrisC]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow The three seminars listed in this question are being covered at koi kollege at the Washington Koi and watergarden Show this weekend. The sessions are free and all are welcome to select the session that they feel best serves their priorities. Thank-you all for your input.

We at the WK&WGS are grateful to Dick that he is willing to speak on this topic, Tosai Selection OR Koi Selection, whichever he decides to do!!

I am the judge handler for the show this year, and had dinner with Mr. Futoshi Mano and Mr. Futoshi Maruyama this evening. Mr Mano was talking about his breeding of the Shinkokai GC this year. Here's my question: How long do I have to wait to get one of these to watch?? He urged me not to take advantage of buying the first set available, but to get one before they get into the mud ponds in April. (read: if you try to get one after that, you will have to mortgage your house.) Interesting, as it takes a breeder 4-5 years to even know if a spawn is worth it.....

Still, these debates are why I love this hobby!

[ppp]

Hope this isn't too off topic..

I've read earlier threads/posts from some of the more learned amongst you guys that there's no such thing as a tategoi tosai for sale. Supposedly, all tategoi, regardless of size/age, are in breeders' ponds. The minute they're sold, they're technically no longer tategoi.

If this is true, why do I see so many tosai gosanke selling for USD5-10k? They're from reputable breeders and far from finished, so Baby Champion potential does not factor into the price. What I infer from this thread (from some of the posters anyway) is that the chances of getting a good (not necessarily a GC) adult from a tosai is next to zero. So does this mean that buying an expensive high (top) grade tosai may merely increase the chances of a good (again, not necessarily GC) adult from 1 in a million to perhaps, er, 2 in a million?

[JasPR]

OK Dan, we can wait a week. I'll keep reminding you if that's OK. I think it's important that if you have a strong exception to the rule that we discuss its unique qualities. I suspect that fish is a male however and that's fine as it can illustrate that a fish like this is on a different time line of development than say a tategoi female.
I also wanted to point out that male fish although not as large as females at 40 months can have pleasing conformation for male fish. This fish had a broad male conformation and some might have thought it was female based on the bone structure. Seeing a picture now would likely confirm the sex for sure? Do you still think the fish is female? The young sumi seems to suggest it is a male.
I had asked you to cut and paste a line or two from one of my earlier posts. It is from post # 68 and I said in that post---

"Tosai are an education as what not to buy and why. In this regard they are educational and worthwhile in terms of practice. Excluded from these comments would be the hot colorful well patterned male tosai that will 'kick peduncle' at any koi show in size 1,2,3. In this case, you can buy a male early and tighten up the sumi or beni for the perfect moment for show competition."

PPP you and a few others seem to have gotten sensitive on the subject? And it is not my intention to ruin anyones fun with koi! But as a result, you seem to be taking offense at something I never said?

-- the original suggestion was that a shape eye and a little education could allow one to select out the diamond from the lumps of coal. That is fun but totally unrealistic. There is no question that you can avoid obvious shiro muji candidates, deformities and unbalanced patterns with a little education. And it is possible to have a reasonably nice adult fish from a tosai choice. But that is not what was creeping into this thread. What was creeping into this thread was the idea that you could acquire information that would allow you to find the one they 'missed at the factory'! I was simply providing some perspective to that. You can not cheat the system.

Quite often the hyped tosai is a living example of the ' emperor with no clothes'. They are beautiful cut flowers to be admired and enjoyed. I like buying such fish from time to time. But they are expensive in that they cost more than other tosai yet they have a short shelf life, making then very expensive in terms of days of enjoyment per dollar. A sansai might cost $1500 and improve and last 5 more years. Making that cost of enjoyment something like $0.82 a day. A very flashy tosai might cost $ 500 and have a past sell date of only 12 months making that cost per day of enjoyment $ 1.36 a day- actually a more expensive fish but a shorter time of beauty and enjoyment. Something to think about? JR

[ppp]

No, JR, not sensitive at all. Just trying to learn, being a relative newbie. Being one, I'm no expert at assessing koi especially at a young age. My original thinking was that a tosai is priced so high because the experts (ie the reputable breeder as well as the dealer) know the fish has a bright future, as their reputation had much to lose if it did not turn out that way. I stand here to be corrected and taught.

[Dan Blatt]

JR, you said.....
PPP you and a few others seem to have gotten sensitive on the subject? And it is not my intention to ruin anyones fun with koi! But as a result, you seem to be taking offense at something I never said?.....

I don't think anyone is taking offense at something you said or never said (unless I missed it somewhere). Seems more to me a matter of sematics regarding tosai selection vs koi selection with Steve................

[JasPR]

It's true that breeders and dealers can be quite honorable. But realities of needing to pay the mortgage and feed the kids also frequently presents a conflict of interest. There is also a complicated commission and kick back structure that needs to be supported. So you can have reasonably honorable people caught within a marketing system.
I have also watched a relaxing of the culling system in my time in the hobby. tateshita of course has always been around. But the goal was to uncover the top 200 fish thru ruthless culling and then agressive selection. The cast offs created an entire network of Chiba dealers in the 1970s and 1980s. Since the koi's popularity has subsided in Japan, the entire market is now export based. And that audience will buy almost anything. So I think culling standards have slipped tremendously. And gimmicks like jumbo tosai are evidence of that reality.
I do have faith in the competitive capitalist system however, and if this trend continues, the Chinese will eventually take this lower end market away from the Japanese ( lower land, water and labor costs). But I digress------


You can trust an old style dealer in that the name of the game is to bring along a budding koi kichi through the lower end tosai to the higher end fish via education. This is selling through the education process and it serves the interest of both the hobbyist and the business man. And tosai are the logical place to start from a cost stand point and a development stand point. Ironically, the margins are usually lower on large fish than small fish ( 2 X as opposed to 4- 8 times cost). But the dollars are larger and the business is more manageable and ultimately profitable. Not to mention that the reputation of selling large fish enhances the value of the smaller fish.
So as much as we would like to see and think of the koi business as some zen experience and dealer/hobbyist bonding experience, it is a business and everyone must get paid. I think we forget that sometimes when we tie our loyalities too close to any one dealer? Competition is good for the consumer most of the time ( consumer rights of course can get out of hand and every business person knows that consumers can be down right unreasonable at times)and also creates a need for some level of honesty on the dealer's part. JR