seminar topic choices

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by weesec01 I will go for 3, 2, than 1 How to select Tosai will be very interesting topic which concurrence with body confirmation, quality, and pattern (mentioned in One of the Thread) .

Good point Dan, I think any discussion of Tosai would have to have body conformation, quality and pattern included in the topic.

[JasPR]

Maybe I'm feeling a little frisky tonight but what is tosai selection? Tosai are selected by the breeder in grades to be sold off. What selecting does the hobbyist do other than focus on a grade and pick the fish that personally appeals to them as 'special'? JR

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Maybe I'm feeling a little frisky tonight but what is tosai selection? Tosai are selected by the breeder in grades to be sold off. What selecting does the hobbyist do other than focus on a grade and pick the fish that personally appeals to them as 'special'? JR

Aren't all Koi selected by breeders in grades to be sold off?

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR What selecting does the hobbyist do other than focus on a grade and pick the fish that personally appeals to them as 'special'? JR

Hahaha thats how I pick them and it shows .

Seriously though I'm with Tony. I would base it off the target audience but to be fair and answer your question 3,1,2.

[dick benbow]

and i have to agree with him. Much of the choice is made for us based on economics and personal pattern preference. I had planned to go into details about what can be learned but I just got a call from a woman with sick fish so I'm off to lend a hand....

[weesec01]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow and i have to agree with him. Much of the choice is made for us based on economics and personal pattern preference. I had planned to go into details about what can be learned but I just got a call from a woman with sick fish so I'm off to lend a hand....

surely, sound like a simple question, tosai selection definately is more economics but (tough answer) as what will be the future fish? I am looking forward for the discussion here

[schildkoi]

Quote: 1. pond building 2. koi identification 3. tosai selection

Like JR, I would rate tosai selection last. Tosai purchases are not economical in the long run since they tend to be lower quality and the chances of a female are slim at best.

Unfortunately, the most important "first step" topic of pond building has little merit since most have already built their pond and don't want to know their own pond's possible shortfalls. My ranking:

1
2
3

As originally listed.

Steve

[JasPR]

It is great fun, no doubt, picking through tosai. And like palying treasure hunting on a public beach, we might find something interesting and even valuable but not likely 'treasure'.

Russ comments " aren't all fish sold off in grades?" . He knows the answer is yes but the selection itself changes with age. The tosai represent the identifiable male crop, the 'too good to throw away but no future fish', the colorful junk and the finely finished baby show fish.
Each one of these tosai is an education onto itself even if the lesson is " don't buy this kind of fish again!" So in this regard, tosai can make you a better consumer and a more knowledgable koi keeper.

The Japanese koi breeder has an eye like a marksman. They also know their stock and know what they will look like next year and the year after. A crack in beni at the head might mean it will not be a three step beni coated fish. A flat head might mean the fish will not have volume as an adult in this line. And all the males tend to have a point at the tip of the fin or a very round fin. Or this particular pairing tends to throw off a percentage of young with small peduncles. Or even a speck of tarnish in this line of hikari moyo means they will be a mess by age three. This is not unlike playing black jack with the House's best dealer.


As the age groups go up, the name of the game changes. At age three the selection of for sale fish changes as the tateshita and males are mostly all sold out. Now we have definite representatives of varieties and the short comings are very clear. There is no perfect fish. And some fish that have negatives have very exceptional postives. This is now a different decision as 'change' can not longer be hoped for- what you see is what you get. And the hot tategoi is a 'screamer' at this age. The 'dealer' is also very confident about his 'cards' at this point.

Age four and the 'selection' is now dead accurate. Only the best is retained. You are now looking at the best 1% of a once 1/4 million spawn.
Selecting among these fish is clear- you pay more for best fish among many excellent fish. And the degree of variation may be in subtle differences of length, girth, pattern and yes, future from this point on. None of these fish are likely to crash and burn if you are buying from an established breeder. The only issue is quality and the ability to hold youthfulness. This age will 'come along', develop and delight- but major change is not likely.

[dick benbow]

let's see where was I, ( turned out the ladies husband was in Taiwan and the fish were dieing and she paniced-price you pay for people knowing you for koi )

While I don't disagree with Steve and JR's explaination, we must accept the fact that these gentlemen are into the higher echelon of learning. They know the top breeders can effectively cull their koi and that the chances of finding a needle in a haystack are few. I salute these guys for the personal achievement, that time and education has given them and both have contributed so much to all of our learning with their efforts to help others.

But for many learners, a chance to see body types, patterns evolve, cause and effect on water quality, growth....tosai has a place in the educational process. If buying a champion is important to you and you have the financial where with all, you can buy the older fish and know your selection is among the best. But if you love this hobby pasionately, and are not in a position to buy the elite fish, than self educating with tosai is a good start.
By paying your dues and learning, when the confidence level is up ( and your kids are thru college) you feel better about buying that better koi based on the confidence of what you've learned.

so many times I see those trying to learn, looking at posters of champion fish and trying to find something that looks akin to the poster only to be disappointed later with their purchases.Fish change in the process of maturing, but you can learn to know what to look for and expect by putting some time in on raising fish from a bllodline you want to learn from.


so i think we can agree that tosai education in the rung of the advancement toward the top of the ladder plays a foundational part of the process of learning. So I think a candid acessment of where you are on the ladder will help answer the question for yourself.

[schildkoi]

OK, the title was "seminar topic choices". There is no doubt that all are worthy topics. JR's and my "adverse" comments concerning tosai were simply designed around what is undoubtably a poor investment in the long run. No doubt about tosai being a learning experience in a number of ways. But, the criteria used in selecting tosai are still geared towards show standards....body conformation, depth of color, pattern, quality ssues, all show criteria. So why use these criteria if the criteria itself for Tosai selection is almost certainly doomed for long term failure? I would think that although the education of selecting a tosai is a noble cause, I would also think that part of the education in the "Tosai Selection Seminar" would also be to educate those making the selections that they have little chance of long term success? While most have selected this seminar as being a first choice, are they perpetuating a "dream" that has little chance of success? Heck, I am guilty in that regard too....I still by lottery tickets for the multi million dollar jackpots and have about the same chance of hitting that as I do buying a Tosai that will yield a GC. Again, not everyone may be after a GC but aren't all "good" selection criterias geared for that?

Sorry Dick...just feeling fiesty this morning. II'll stick to my rankings even though I know what "should be" and what "actually is" are typically disjointed.

Steve