seminar topic choices

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi OK, the title was "seminar topic choices". There is no doubt that all are worthy topics. JR's and my "adverse" comments concerning tosai were simply designed around what is undoubtably a poor investment in the long run. No doubt about tosai being a learning experience in a number of ways. But, the criteria used in selecting tosai are still geared towards show standards....body conformation, depth of color, pattern, quality ssues, all show criteria. So why use these criteria if the criteria itself for Tosai selection is almost certainly doomed for long term failure? I would think that although the education of selecting a tosai is a noble cause, I would also think that part of the education in the "Tosai Selection Seminar" would also be to educate those making the selections that they have little chance of long term success? While most have selected this seminar as being a first choice, are they perpetuating a "dream" that has little chance of success? Heck, I am guilty in that regard too....I still by lottery tickets for the multi million dollar jackpots and have about the same chance of hitting that as I do buying a Tosai that will yield a GC. Again, not everyone may be after a GC but aren't all "good" selection criterias geared for that? Sorry Dick...just feeling fiesty this morning. II'll stick to my rankings even though I know what "should be" and what "actually is" are typically disjointed. Steve

Been there done that.. Tosai are a great learning tool, but a very poor investment. Never seen a koi that won Baby GC, ever get to a higher level than best in size the following year, and after that there is only one way for it to go, and that is down hill. 99% of the tosai "ringers" are finished fish. Any tosai worthy of growing and perhaps one day of being Grand Champ caliber are in Japan, in the breeders "really secret ponds".

[dick benbow]

and again I think for accomplishing a show winner your absolutely right. But for many, tosai are an inexpensive way to see how patterns break. How underlying sumi appears, how brothers and sisters from the same folks are different.

in regards to that ladder I referred to earlier, the most important rung to get up to is confidence in keeping the water thru a well designed pond and filtration system. This gives energy towards achieving the next rung which is better and better fish if your purpose to to compete in shows.Or you want to
allow your koi to be the best they can be.

I'm always amazed in my seminars when I poll the attendees to learn that the vast majority could never imagine entering shows. Fortunately many do. I think there is a place in the education of those who want to advance in showing to begin seeing cause and affect. Also One thing I see in japan i don't see here is folks who will specialize in rearing koi for a special competition. Maybe it's baby grand, Jr Grand, best doutsu, best male. They develop a reputation and take pride in selecting and position a koi other than those that compete for GC or reserve.

But along the way we have to help educate those koi keepers to what's possible in their journey, and i quess I'll try and play my part by offering what I know about tosai selection. ( P.S. -Steve I get the urge every once in a while to buy a lotto ticket, myself....your right we all hold on to the impossible dream....a GC or winning big $$$$$ )

[aquitori]

Having talked to "newbies", it's hard to explain koi. With so much information now it makes it hard for some of us who help mentor these hobbyist who need some guidance with "Koi overload"...hahahaha...I like listening to these hobbyist who like to be in the same league as some of the top hobbyist, but cant tell you things about they're koi and can only tell you he/she's koi are expensive...To be honest I have run into alot of hobbyist like that, cocky because they paid 5 figures for they're fish then wondering why their fish losing at a show wasnt based on cost of it rather than quality.

But to get back on the subject, tosai selection is a good topic but I think understanding quality at different stages would be good for any hobbyist regardless newbie or not...

[Lam Nguyen]

In my opinion, thinking that one has to buy a nisai or older in order to win big at a koi show, while true, is doing a disservice to this hobby. It is almost like buying your koi trophy. In fact, one can hire the best pond builder to build them a state-of-the-art pond, then call Toshio to have him send his best yonsai so that you can win your grand champion trophy. This can be very intimidating for someone who is new to the hobby.

While I reserve this type of competition to those that are more advanced in the hobby than I am, I am content with learning more about successfully raising koi. After all, like what Dick said, I still have to put my child through college.

Perhaps the one thing that attracted me to this hobby was the fact that there are so many facets to this hobby. I have seen people raising koi in 150-gal aquariums to those with 10,000+ gallon ponds that have it all. I have also seen people whose faces gleam with excitement when they buy that $20 koi and those who are not content until they have a $1,000 koi.

I find great enjoyment in learning as much as I can about koi by using lower-grade koi so that one day when I do purchase that nisai or sansai I will be able to know exactly what the breeder saw in that particular koi. I will also know about conformation, depth of color pigmentation, quality and patterns. While I know that Japanese dealers are very high on reputation, I don't want to totally rely on them for pricing. I want to one day be able to look at a koi and its breeder and be able to determine how much it will cost. I find this important especially since koi prices can be very subjective.

I would personally like to hear a talk on tosai selection even though the thought that tosai are not great returns on my investment are starting to sink in. In fact, reality kinda struck when I had to give away 10 of my koi over the past couple of days. However, I believe that they have served their purpose as I have learned lots from them. Now I am more comfortable with higher grade koi as my knowledge in koi selection/change and water management have expanded.

[aquitori]

I think it was said in one koi book that buying tosai are for suckers...(well not in that wording)...but every hobbyist has to learn from somewhere right? To me the journey never stops...Now I am studying Showa and trying to apply what I have learned from my koi friends(dealers,hobbyist) to study first hand. Now am I that crazy to spend top dollar for Dainichi tosai, when I can buy from a breeder of lesser known name who uses straight Dainichi bloodline for cheaper? Everyone wants name brand, but to have the genetics is just the same.

Even with Nisai you aren't given anymore of a chance than a tosai...I have seen Nisai left in Japan turn for the worst. So the ratio of spending more isnt always given...Now when you start talking about 3 to 4 years, you have to drop a considerable investment into hoping the dream becomes that more closer to reality...

[koiczar]

I would tend to agree, it depends on your audience. I wouldn't be interested in any of these discussions, just not my personal cup of tea!

Lam

Buying tosai is a sucker's game. If you want to learn about "quality" and how it develops you need to look at thousands of very high quality tosai stock, the parents of said stock and maybe some of their older brothers and sisters to begin to understand how a particular bloodline develops.Also, what the breeder had in mind when he selected the parents to breed together.

Going to a dealers and staring into the tosai vats is nothing more than an exercise in futility. I know, I've personally been there and done that for more years than I care to count (takes my hard head longer for things to sink in)!! These fish are mostly nothing more than Grade A stock the breeder keeps for export, nothing more. As JR says, if you want to see better quality, start looking at the older fish, say, 3-5 years old. You will see the quality the breeder had hoped for from the beginning, so you will see what "quality" really is with regards to conformation, depth of color(s) and patterns. In a lot of cases, the patterns aren't something we Westerners under stand from what we've been taught. The breeder reveres a fish because of the overall "quality" not just pattern - that is only one attribute which is lower on their list of desirable traits than ours. Like Steve C says about a pond/filter - IT'S A SYSTEM!! Well, the overall artistic beauty of a fish is what the Japanese see.

Tony

The difference between buying fish DIRECTLY from breeders like Dainichi versus others who breed from Dainichi only stock comes when the culling is done. Who knows a genetic line better than the ORIGINAL breeder. They have lineage knowledge the others don't necessarily have. So, when they cull, they have a broader base to draw from. If I want to watch a Danichi line showa develop and learn from it, then I would buy directly from Dainichi. I also would not buy a tosai. It would be nisai or sansai. I may even leave it in Japan to grow out for at least one year to give it the best care I could so it has a better than even chance of developing the way it should (I don't want to ruin it before it has a chance-LOL)!! If you really want to compare apples to oranges, Matsunosuke line sanke are used by most breeders in Japan. If you wanted to learn about the genetic line, who would you buy from? Even if the fish were bred true from only Sakai bloodlines. If you would choose others, then why not try Matt McCann's fish at Quality Koi? He uses Matsunosuke bloodline and he is a domestic breeder with lots of potential fish! Might be worth a try as quite a few here have done and can attest to.

Mike

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Tony The difference between buying fish DIRECTLY from breeders like Dainichi versus others who breed from Dainichi only stock comes when the culling is done. Who knows a genetic line better than the ORIGINAL breeder. They have lineage knowledge the others don't necessarily have. So, when they cull, they have a broader base to draw from. If I want to watch a Danichi line showa develop and learn from it, then I would buy directly from Dainichi. I also would not buy a tosai. It would be nisai or sansai. I may even leave it in Japan to grow out for at least one year to give it the best care I could so it has a better than even chance of developing the way it should (I don't want to ruin it before it has a chance-LOL)!! If you really want to compare apples to oranges, Matsunosuke line sanke are used by most breeders in Japan. If you wanted to learn about the genetic line, who would you buy from? Even if the fish were bred true from only Sakai bloodlines. If you would choose others, then why not try Matt McCann's fish at Quality Koi? He uses Matsunosuke bloodline and he is a domestic breeder with lots of potential fish! Might be worth a try as quite a few here have done and can attest to. Mike

If I were to go to a breeder I would ask what bloodline they use, generally most breeders use Dainichi anyways. We both know your not going to see Dainichi's best fish, unless your Ron Goforth or somebody of that nature...I was merely stating that if I wanted to have a Dainichi fish why would I need to by direct from the farm of name when I wouldnt be offered the best or even see the best. Now if I wanted to buy a Dainichi line fish I would probably buy it from Isa or Sakuma...or maybe even Omosako. Genetics is genetics, the art comes from the culls.

Like Dainichi Showa line, Matsunosuke line Sanke is all over the place from breeder to breeder. But when asking about Matsunosuke fish you have to ask what bloodline is in the fish. Now if I were looking for growth I would ask is the oyagoi from the Magoi line or traditional line. It's just perference for what you want to see your fish develop into. The tosai Kohak I bought from Russ last year is from INC, but the fish shows the lines of Sensuke. The genetics of the fish are far from the traditional Matsunosuke line we are familar with. Mat McCann's fish are good but I would still rather take a gamble buying a fish from Japan. The last domestic fish I bought was from Douglas and that was my graduation from Domestic to Japanese....But most likely I would probably buy fish from Mat, because he gots a bigger money backing to improve his stocks....

[Dan Blatt]

Interesting thread and comments. To assume that everyone will evolve to a certain level in this hobby that requires an mandatory understanding that tosai are basically a worthless investment, and only 3 or perferably 4-5 year old koi are where you get the most bang for your buck, in my mind is unrealistic. It's economically restrictive for one thing. Most are not even going there in their koi journey.....period.
Most people dont show, and some that do eventually stop for any number of reasons. I would venture to say that tosai make up a large percentage of show entries at their initial age and their subsequent return to the local show tanks over the next few years. Without their presence, I really don't see much of a show entry wise, and therefore not much of a show as far as participation by members and hopeful newbies.
Now I'm not dissagreeing with the primise you get a better cut flower with older koi, but only that most people won't arrive there. Therefore tosai have their place and probably always will. It also is cheap fun...or should I say cheaper.
I'll give an example.....few years back I picked two nice kohaku's with excellent patterns from a $25 tank. They were 5-5 1/2 inches and I bought them to keep my then aquarium in the office running. Dick was there and I showed him the two koi, and asked what he thought. Both would end up shiro muji. Well he was right on one of them, but the other now swims in my pond and at 14 inches started to barely show what it really was....Ai goromo, and developing slowly with an already beautiful 6 step kohaku pattern. Now about 17 inches. So you never know....although Dick did on one of them.
Point is that yeah the Ai goromo will never be world class like some you see in Japan shows or magazines, but right now would sell very quickly at a koi shop for $300+(and I know that because I managed a koi business for a friend for several years). I would also do well at a show...not just because of lack of goromos but because of it's overall appearance.
Just food for thought.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dan Blatt Interesting thread and comments. To assume that everyone will evolve to a certain level in this hobby that requires an mandatory understanding that tosai are basically a worthless investment, and only 3 or perferably 4-5 year old koi are where you get the most bang for your buck, in my mind is unrealistic. It's economically restrictive for one thing. Most are not even going there in their koi journey.....period. Most people dont show, and some that do eventually stop for any number of reasons. I would venture to say that tosai make up a large percentage of show entries at their initial age and their subsequent return to the local show tanks over the next few years. Without their presence, I really don't see much of a show entry wise, and therefore not much of a show as far as participation by members and hopeful newbies. Now I'm not dissagreeing with the primise you get a better cut flower with older koi, but only that most people won't arrive there. Therefore tosai have their place and probably always will. It also is cheap fun...or should I say cheaper. I'll give an example.....few years back I picked two nice kohaku's with excellent patterns from a $25 tank. They were 5-5 1/2 inches and I bought them to keep my then aquarium in the office running. Dick was there and I showed him the two koi, and asked what he thought. Both would end up shiro muji. Well he was right on one of them, but the other now swims in my pond and at 14 inches started to barely show what it really was....Ai goromo, and developing slowly with an already beautiful 6 step kohaku pattern. Now about 17 inches. So you never know....although Dick did on one of them. Point is that yeah the Ai goromo will never be world class like some you see in Japan shows or magazines, but right now would sell very quickly at a koi shop for $300+(and I know that because I managed a koi business for a friend for several years). I would also do well at a show...not just because of lack of goromos but because of it's overall appearance. Just food for thought.

Thanks Dan, I totally agree with you and I am glad you posted these comments.

[MikeM]

So much to say!... A couple of points:

1) If we had to start with $1,000 koi, there wouldn't be a koi hobby.

2) Be thankful for all the folks who buy koi in the $100-$700 price range. Without them the dealers & breeders would starve.

3) Be thankful for the show enthusiasts with deep pockets. They drive the improvement of koi through their competition.

4) Every GC got an award because the better fish did not get entered... with possible exception of the Shinkokai GC. They are all losers in that sense.

5) If you enjoy the fish for what they are, and not just for the prize they might win, you will enjoy the hobby forever. Burn out comes from within, not from the koi.