seminar topic choices

[l113892]

In order, 3 - 1 - 2

[schildkoi]

I guess that I am just not eloquent enough to make my point.....let me try another approach.

Let's use this comparison. Tosai are to Koi as rock bottom ponds are to Koi ponds.

Is it better to teach about Tosai selection, or Koi selection? Either topic is irrelevent to those simply wanting koi for their pond. Like attempting to teach a rock bottom pond owner who may be in denial, the person simply wanting "Koi" in their pond has no interest in the finer aspects of Koi. For those willing to teach the rock bottom pond owners who are willing to progress is in comparison to those who wish to learn about the higher aspects of Koi, regardless of whether or not they intend to show. Shall those willing to teach "Koi Selection" (not Tosai selection) also teach those willing to progress (they are or they wouldn't be attending) the economics of Tosai selection as compared to "Koi Selection"?

The Rock bottom ponder who is not willing to change is not going to attend a koi pond building seminar. Those that perpetuate "hybrid" watergarden/koi pknd designs with the still existing shortfalls are by comparison the same as those who also perperuate a similar myth of acceptable progression through Tosai selection (sorry Dick). Teaching folks about Koi selection is a very good thing.....IMHO this should also include the shortfalls of Tosai selection.

Someone earlier (Dan Blatt I think), mentioned the 2 Tosai Kohakus and seemed proud that although Dick (I think) said that both would be shiro muji within a year, one was not.....but, it turned out not to be a Kohaku either but instead a Goromo. Although I might be happy it didn't turn Shiro Muji, I would think that if I wanted a Kohaku and it turned out to be otherwise, I would be a tad disappointed? No offense here Dan, but that case supports the shortfalls of Tosai selection, not the support of such.

Many may look at these posts of mine as coming across as "elitist." That is definitely not the intention. There are ways of learning other than the "school of hard knocks." Yes, that is the way I learned but wish (at least monetarily) I had opted to advance my methods of learning through other alternatives which I eventually found.

Yes, I still buy a Tosai now and again to "play with," or to enter into a show only to be given away shortly thereafter to an up and comer. This helps advance their learning curve since without exception these Tosai go down hill quickly and they can see the logic behind "holding back" until their selections can improve (nisai).

Time to run...gotta go tell a rock bottom ponder how to select their rocks for their pond. (I know, I am bad)

Steve

[Nancy M.]

Steve, Make sure you have them pick the pretty colorful rocks, so when the algea grows, and all the crap gets on the bottom they will still have something purty to see in there pond...

[Dan Blatt]

Steve.....your said

Someone earlier (Dan Blatt I think), mentioned the 2 Tosai Kohakus and seemed proud that although Dick (I think) said that both would be shiro muji within a year, one was not.....but, it turned out not to be a Kohaku either but instead a Goromo. Although I might be happy it didn't turn Shiro Muji, I would think that if I wanted a Kohaku and it turned out to be otherwise, I would be a tad disappointed? No offense here Dan, but that case supports the shortfalls of Tosai selection, not the support of such.

I guess it all in how one looks at things. Always being an optimist, I really wasn't disappointed it turned out Ai goromo. In fact I always like Ai goromo, well at least some I have seen for their beauty....but try to find one, a nice one that is. If you can....big $$$$. So I simply counted by blessings and took a little different journey is all. Never said proud...that infers something completely different.....only surprised. To be honest with you I'm more disappointed that my big flowery Ogawa female kohaku recently lost her beautiful maruten marking.....course she was real expensive, not a cheap tosai.
Also remember I said I bought those two to keep my aquarium running, not as potential future pond fish. Just turned out one made to the pond. Just illustrating a point here is all.

[Dan Blatt]

Steve ...you also said

The Rock bottom ponder who is not willing to change is not going to attend a koi pond building seminar. Those that perpetuate "hybrid" watergarden/koi pknd designs with the still existing shortfalls are by comparison the same as those who also perperuate a similar myth of acceptable progression through Tosai selection (sorry Dick). Teaching folks about Koi selection is a very good thing.....IMHO this should also include the shortfalls of Tosai selection.

Boy, now that's a real stretch. Sorry have to call foul on this one. Dick's a good friend and what he does for folks at his siminars is far from what you equate it too. And honestly....yeah it does sounds "elitist"....your words, not mine.

[schildkoi]

Dick is a good friend of mine too. But, in this specific case, I think efforts are better served teaching others how to select Koi...all the same attributes but also the "warning" of sorts concerning Tosai and the extreme unlikeliness that they will turn out as expected or have a long "shelf life" and thus the poor economics of buying such.

Dan, you got "lucky" that the kohaku you bought turned out to be a goromo and not a shiro muji like the other....my point was simply to show that it didn't turn out even close to the actual buying time perceptions......a point all too often which occurs in buying Tosai and a point that should be told to those wishing to buy Tosai.

Oh, and the comparisons to rock bottom ponding is really all that much of a "stretch" when you actually evaluate all of the motives on both sides of the equation. Now "denial" on the other hand seems prevelant in both cases as well?

Steve

[dick benbow]

and sometimes there just not a need to speak eloquently, common english gets the job done.

As Dan has pointed out you can learn something from raising koi. Whether they be true tategoi or tosai. there are many different methods of learning,
not all can go from point a to z by learning from what other's tell them. They must plod along learning at their own rate. As Dan points out, even expensive
fish don't always make a good "investment". As I tell my students, you didn't fail in your investment, the fish may have ; but you now have aquired that
knowledge toward advancing your education. And that is worth investing in.

Steve,
As someone who has invested much of their life in koi, and reinvested their efforts to help others, I think people think of your opinions positively. But as a person who's special knowledge is show koi and building ponds to support them, why wouldn't they expect you'd be focused on any other end of the hobby? Actually as a team, I think we do alright in taking those pretty rocks Nancy speaks of, out of the pond and along side it. Still to be appreciated but not destroying our water quality and allowing beginners to progress along the road ( or rungs of the ladder) toward giving our AKCA judging Team ( including yourself) fits trying to all agree on GC.

In summation, when I first started in this hobby there was nothing to refer to for help. NOTHING! Today there is no excuse for those wanting to learn not to have access to great information. I think the challenge they have is trying to figure out where they're at in the hobby and where they want to go.While they do,I'll continue to offer my tosai selection seminars, knowing it may be only a passing phrase for many but also knowing that to koi breeders who produce the treasured few, having a ready market for those that didn't make the cut continues to help them as well. The full circle of koi

[aquitori]

Damn, there a easier way than learning from the "School of Hard Knocks"? Man where was the internet and the "New" KoiUSA when you needed back then....say 15 years ago....

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi I guess that I am just not eloquent enough to make my point.....let me try another approach. Let's use this comparison. Tosai are to Koi as rock bottom ponds are to Koi ponds. Is it better to teach about Tosai selection, or Koi selection? Either topic is irrelevent to those simply wanting koi for their pond. Like attempting to teach a rock bottom pond owner who may be in denial, the person simply wanting "Koi" in their pond has no interest in the finer aspects of Koi. For those willing to teach the rock bottom pond owners who are willing to progress is in comparison to those who wish to learn about the higher aspects of Koi, regardless of whether or not they intend to show. Shall those willing to teach "Koi Selection" (not Tosai selection) also teach those willing to progress (they are or they wouldn't be attending) the economics of Tosai selection as compared to "Koi Selection"? The Rock bottom ponder who is not willing to change is not going to attend a koi pond building seminar. Those that perpetuate "hybrid" watergarden/koi pknd designs with the still existing shortfalls are by comparison the same as those who also perperuate a similar myth of acceptable progression through Tosai selection (sorry Dick). Teaching folks about Koi selection is a very good thing.....IMHO this should also include the shortfalls of Tosai selection. Someone earlier (Dan Blatt I think), mentioned the 2 Tosai Kohakus and seemed proud that although Dick (I think) said that both would be shiro muji within a year, one was not.....but, it turned out not to be a Kohaku either but instead a Goromo. Although I might be happy it didn't turn Shiro Muji, I would think that if I wanted a Kohaku and it turned out to be otherwise, I would be a tad disappointed? No offense here Dan, but that case supports the shortfalls of Tosai selection, not the support of such. Many may look at these posts of mine as coming across as "elitist." That is definitely not the intention. There are ways of learning other than the "school of hard knocks." Yes, that is the way I learned but wish (at least monetarily) I had opted to advance my methods of learning through other alternatives which I eventually found. Yes, I still buy a Tosai now and again to "play with," or to enter into a show only to be given away shortly thereafter to an up and comer. This helps advance their learning curve since without exception these Tosai go down hill quickly and they can see the logic behind "holding back" until their selections can improve (nisai). Time to run...gotta go tell a rock bottom ponder how to select their rocks for their pond. (I know, I am bad) Steve

I am totally offended by your personal views that are not those of any organization that you may belong to . Seriously though, rock bottomed ponds?!?! If you want to make a comparison then compare tosai to pot. They are like a gateway drug. You score a couple tosai and take them to a show. You take a couple hits on some honorable mentions. Then you've got the taste and get some higher grade tosai. You get a couple best in size 1 or 2 and then you hit a Baby Grand. Now you're done with tosai and you move on to bigger and drugs..er koi. You start buying two year olds looking for that young champ award. Next thing you know you're in Japan freebasing an 80bu Sakai Showa. Ok so maybe its a stretch but so is comparing rocks to tosai .

[KoiCop]

Yeah, what Jim said.