seminar topic choices

[MacKoi]

To all, I just got carried away. I have the upmost respect for mr. Benbow as I indicated about a year ago ( he does know what he is talking about). Besides I was probably preaching to the choir on this board. I apoligize (for the spelling also) to all.. Good luck with whatever, see you at the next show.Mac

[dick benbow]

Some of the sharpest people in koi are the most passionate about what they value...obviously your passionate about your ponds keep rockin'

[Dan Blatt]

I agree with Dick....keep the passion.....no offense taken here.

[MikeM]

Mac: I've missed your posts! Tell it like it is, guy. You do it with that extra spice that gets through the thickness.

[schildkoi]

My point was not to value pond design over Tosai selection (although I do agree with your comments Mac). My point, which has apparently gone over most folks heads was to NOT teach Tosai selection, but instead teach Koi selection...including the pros and cons of Tosai slection. the same attributes hold true in selection, simply at a different stage of developement. To teach simply Tosai selection is misleading and goes back to my anology of the rock bottom pond verses a koi pond. If one is teaching "Tosai selection" using the attributes for Koi slection then has the tendancy to mislead/reinforce those who want to learn (otherwise they wouldn't be in the seminar) that selecting Tosai will/can lead to the monster koi vying for the top positions at the Koi show such as GC and RGC. That simply would be a one in a billion (most likely worse) set of odds (back to my lottery analogy) and simply does an injustice to those who are attempting to learn.

Teach those willing to learn how to select koi....not Tosai. That's my 2 cents.....again. LOL

Steve

[Rich L]

I’ve been in classes where Grant Fugita talked about purchasing koi. He covered koi selection for landscape ponds to Tategoi. He leaves it to the hobbyist to decide what they want from the purchase.

Grant brought in another speaker, Chi from southern Cal. Chi has focused his learning on very small koi. An interesting thing about many Asians is they see a hobby as a discipline, a path to perfection that never ends. Winning a contest is a reward but not a goal. The goal is learning and developing discipline. Compare that to a typical American trait to get the rewards now and win the contest.

This hobby is made up of people who like to build things, people who like to learn new things, People who have made koi health the major discipline within their hobby.

And all of us enjoy visiting and talking to people with similar interests.

Hooray for us!

I’ve been disappointed in the AKCA seminars. MCA mentioned more advanced speakers as a preference. Me too! That’s not to say I wouldn’t sit in on one of Chi’s talks, I would. He’s the best tosai speaker I’ve seen and you folks should invite him to speak at a club meeting or local seminar. He’d be outstanding at an AKCA seminar because he could be enjoyed by advanced as well as beginning hobbyists.

We generalists have evolved into elitists because our viewpoint is more on target than the rest of you.

[weesec01]

"In summation, when I first started in this hobby there was nothing to refer to for help. NOTHING! Today there is no excuse for those wanting to learn not to have access to great information. I think the challenge they have is trying to figure out where they're at in the hobby and where they want to go.While they do,I'll continue to offer my tosai selection seminars, knowing it may be only a passing phrase for many but also knowing that to koi breeders who produce the treasured few, having a ready market for those that didn't make the cut continues to help them as well. The full circle of koi " posted by Dick Benbow.

Well commend, We just simplied can't please everyone. It is nothing wrong with this topic "Selection of Tosai". IMO, the topic itself means a lot. Reason why it is Tosai is because of "Value in Money". "Tosai" is always where a newbie or pro will start and end because of the enjoyment to see how your selection grow and turn out. Similar, Kohaku is where a koi hobbyist will start and end with.

[Cody Turtle]

I don’t want to piss people off but the way several of you are acting is incredibly snobby. You can still be a high-end koi hobbyist with out spending a ridiculous amount of money. You guys are sending the wrong message about this hobby, and by doing that you are doing a disservice to the hobby in general. There will be no growth in this hobby if you act like you need to spend a crap load of money to have a decent pond or the fact that people shouldn’t buy tosai high grade or not. As long as your pond is deep enough and you keep your water parameters at the levels they should be at you should be happy. Not all of us can spend the kind of money that you guys act like is nothing.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cody Turtle I don’t want to piss people off but the way several of you are acting is incredibly snobby. You can still be a high-end koi hobbyist with out spending a ridiculous amount of money. You guys are sending the wrong message about this hobby, and by doing that you are doing a disservice to the hobby in general. There will be no growth in this hobby if you act like you need to spend a crap load of money to have a decent pond or the fact that people shouldn’t buy tosai high grade or not. As long as your pond is deep enough and you keep your water parameters at the levels they should be at you should be happy. Not all of us can spend the kind of money that you guys act like is nothing.

Cody, don't worry about pissing anyone off, tell it like you see it, I do.

That being said though, I think you are making some assumptions (actually mis-assumptions). I would presume that you are thinking that I am one of those sounding snobby? If that is the case, you are definitely missing the point. Actually, I haven't talked money at all other than to say that Tosai from a pure economics standpoint is a poor investment as compared to Nisai or Sansai simply due to the fact that they have a short shelf life when expectations from the time of purchase are not realized. When I buy a Tosai (typically to support a show and its vendors), I don't have long term expectations for them. I know their shelf life is 1 to 2 years and these typically get donated to club auctions or to new hobbyists who are wanting to take a step up from "pond grade" but at the same time have a willingness to learn. This allows those individuals to see how the once Tosai can quickly go down hill as well and save them some of that buyers grief that is so common when purchasing Tosai.

You also seem to think that I have a money tree. Those that actually know me know that is about as far from the truth as one can get. But it is that lack of that money tree that also has contributed to my desire to learn and to make wiser choices over the years in my Koi selections as well as in pond design and construction. I've thrown away my share of money on poor koi selections and ponds and I hate to see others fall into that same trap. As for your analogy for an "acceptable" pond with depth and proper water parameters, I think you are being a tad niave' there as well and I guess the school of hard knocks will have to be your teacher.

MikeM stated in a thread awhile back about his positive feedback on the series of articles in KOI USA concerning "It's a System." Thanks for those comments Mike but you also added that the series was more focused on the upper end of the hobby. I would controvert that. Good design principles hold true regardless. Heck, I have built three, 2500 gallon ponds (for myself) utilizing those principles at an average cost of about $1800 each. That is about $.73 per gallon of pond! Granted the filtration equipment was a one time purchase so the intitial pond was about $3800 or about $1.50 per gallon. Not exactly what a "high end hobbyist" with a maney tree would be expected to pay.

I used the sabove simply as an example of how assumptions don't always hold true and ones willingness to learn can be adversely effected by those simple misassumptions.

There's an old saying that we all know.....You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

Steve

[MikeM]

Cody: I think RichL's post above makes an important point when he speaks of the differing concepts of a discipline and a competition. The koi hobby has so many aspects to it. There truly is something for everyone. There are the hobbyists whose wealth and competitiveness has allowed the breeders to devote themselves to perfecting nishikigoi... an unending pursuit. The bulk of hobbyists are not on that plane, but the enjoyment of koi is just as great.

There is a statement I often make that most folks do not fully understand: Everyone can afford Grand Champion quality koi. It just depends on which year.

The $20 tosai of today may well have been the best koi in the world if only born in 1920. The $5 Ogon would have been the center of the koi world's attention in 1957. If we appreciate each of our carp for the beauty it provides, and all it represents, I believe we take far more from the hobby than we put in it.

Learn to appreciate the qualities that make a koi the best there is in the 21st century, and the depth of enjoyment becomes greater, even if that grand animal is only seen once in a show tank. After all, as JR has so well taught, it is like a cut flower. Enjoy the moment. It is fleeting.

It is the diverse aspects of this hobby that takes the hobby as a whole to a different level.