seminar topic choices

[cppond]

I would think that understanding how to select a tosai to maximize your chances of getting a decent one would be fundamental in understanding the next stages of development, and how to best select a Nisai to maximize your chances of getting a good one. Perhaps that's not the case.

After all, a breeder is engaging in "tosai selection" all the time and I can't see how understanding that process would not be beneficial to the hobbyist. Learning how to select tosai may very well result in a hobbyist never finding one that meets his criteria, but he or she still needs to understand the process in order to make the determination not to purchase. On the other hand, learning how to select tosai may result in hobbyists being able to select the best pond grade koi for their money. Either way, it seems to me it is worth knowing.

[MikeM]

SteveC: Yeah... when you get to the end of the series, maybe a follow-on series covering the most economical ways to implement the concepts? [I'm anything but a DIY'er. However, there sure are a lot in the hobby.]

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM SteveC: Yeah... when you get to the end of the series, maybe a follow-on series covering the most economical ways to implement the concepts? [I'm anything but a DIY'er. However, there sure are a lot in the hobby.]

Already in the works Mike...January/February 08 issue.

Carl,

Quote: I would think that understanding how to select a tosai to maximize your chances of getting a decent one would be fundamental in understanding the next stages of development, and how to best select a Nisai to maximize your chances of getting a good one. Perhaps that's not the case.

Carl, that logic is about the same as buying 2 sets of lottery tickets. It betters your odds from 1 in 1 billion to 1 in 999,999,999. Once again, teach Koi selection, the same principles apply without the misrepresentation that your long term goals of a better koi will be substantially increased simply knowing about "Tosai". Can ya'll tell I am a big believer in "truth in advertising?" LOL

Steve

Steve

[dick benbow]

I enjoyed Rich L's post and his explaination of the difference of an american goal and expectation verses an asian one. Something I've always been impressed with an incorporated in my learning. I for one would love to hear a
seminar from Chi. Who has a contact and can PM me to see if there's one scheduled.

[Dan Blatt]

Steve you said......
Carl, that logic is about the same as buying 2 sets of lottery tickets. It betters your odds from 1 in 1 billion to 1 in 999,999,999. Once again, teach Koi selection, the same principles apply without the misrepresentation that your long term goals of a better koi will be substantially increased simply knowing about "Tosai". Can ya'll tell I am a big believer in "truth in advertising?" LOL

Maybe I'm just dense or retirement is making me lose touch with reality. Just can't understand your reasoning on this Steve. Whether it's section of tosai, nisai, sansai, or whatever age, it is still a selection process in the evaluation of an individual koi. Breeders do it, buyers do it, dealers do it, and koi hobbyists do it.
I agree with you as far as koi selection, but specifically defining by age such as tosai is in my mind is also appropriate and not the issue you make it. It's like saying if you select a tosai in a year or two get rid of it because it worthless. Funny I have 4 or 5 koi out of my 15 that I selected as tosai and they are far from finished. Another one that I won (NI Board), a Oomo showa that I did not select, I was just lucky. Several have done well when shown and all still would (if I still showed).
I just think it's too much of a stretch to say all tosai we select are worthless....maybe you don't exactly mean that but that's my take on it. I personally believe everyone's long term chances of better koi are best served with an understanding of selection in every age group.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow I enjoyed Rich L's post and his explaination of the difference of an american goal and expectation verses an asian one. Something I've always been impressed with an incorporated in my learning. I for one would love to hear a seminar from Chi. Who has a contact and can PM me to see if there's one scheduled.

Hi Dick
Here is Chai's email addy: tatekoi@aol.com

[dick benbow]

In My learning and teaching style I love to spend time individually studying a subject and then compare notes with other's also on the same journey. I really did enjoy and learn from Toshio's visit this spring and will look forward
to this contact

[JasPR]

Maybe a reality check is in order here?

The culling process is first a 'removal' of undesirable fish from the spawn and later a retaining of tategoi as they show promise to be worth more money next year and the year after. You all need to think about that for a moment or two.
In the cartoon metaphor of a lottery ticket, you would need to have a state lottery in which the state doesn't know the winning ticket but it can tell that the winning ticket will be in the 2000- 3000 sequence range ( out of one million tickets). They RETAIN those 1000 tickets as best they can. And THAT is just a matter of looking at the numbers on the ticket! So this has the effect of making the odds much greater than 1 in one million.

But these are not pieces of paper. They are living genetic outcomes. The breeder will flood the selection with all the males that are identifiable, All the females with no chance for secondary hi, All poor patterns. The culls with then be graded for pricing purposes. These results are sent all over the world. Your dealer might secure 100 and further re-price them based on color and pattern. If YOU are suggesting that a first year hobbyist is going to pick a GC from the end of this process, I do have a bridge for sale. If you think that an EBAY outlet will be a place to find that future GC, I have an 'invisible bridge' I'd like to sell you! Life is way too short for such wishing.
We have a saying on Wall Street, " the race is not 'always' won by the swift and the strong--- but--- that is the way to bet"

Spending time with Tosai is a good primer for keeping better fish. As you master husbandry techniques, you can reduce numbers and trade up in quality to two and then three year olds.
But to suggest that tosai are just small sansai that, as of yet, have not shown quality elements is to misunderstand koi. Gosai are not just bigger tosai. They are a grade of fish that was held back from the beginning.

One way of looking at this is, Tosai are released from the spawn in a selection process due to some disappointment in the eyes of the breeder of that line. Sansai, on the other hand, are sold because they have reached their maximum dollar potential and room is becoming a factor for such large fish. These three year olds are not expensive because they were held for two more years. They are expensive because they represent the cream of the crop. The top 2%.

When Chi bends a fish to show density of beni along the fish's body, or when Matt shows the kiwa at the fish's side as an indicator of stability of beni plates, they are showing why tosai are sold off. Within those issues are grades or degrees of failure. Sorry folks but the truth of these things will save you money and time. Tosai are an education as what not to buy and why. In this regard they are educational and worthwhile in terms of practice. Excluded from these comments would be the hot colorful well patterned male tosai that will 'kick peduncle' at any koi show in size 1,2,3. In this case, you can buy a male early and tighten up the sumi or beni for the perfect moment for show competition.

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Already in the works Mike...January/February 08 issue. Carl, Carl, that logic is about the same as buying 2 sets of lottery tickets. It betters your odds from 1 in 1 billion to 1 in 999,999,999. Once again, teach Koi selection, the same principles apply without the misrepresentation that your long term goals of a better koi will be substantially increased simply knowing about "Tosai". Can ya'll tell I am a big believer in "truth in advertising?" LOL Steve Steve

Steve

I think that is a false analogy since buying two lottery tickets would be taking the identical action twice in order to increase the odds of good results. On the other hand, the premise of my statement implies sequential steps in the path to understanding, (how fry develop, how tosai develop, how nisai develop . . .) not duplicative steps.

Your argument that understanding the development of tosai does not aid in selecting better koi may have validity. I don't have the experience to know if that is true, or not, but the analogy is not valid.

I would be interested to know this: On the occasions that you do purchase tosai, do you apply any critical analysis at all, or do you just make random purchases?

[KoiCop]

Dick . . .

To follow up on Rich and Nancy's info, it's:

Chai Taevanitcharoen, Granada Hills, CA

FYI, he's a ZNA SoCal member and a ZNA Local Certified Judge.