seminar topic choices

[KoiCop]

In post #55 (this thread) Steve said:

My point, which has apparently gone over most folks heads was to NOT teach Tosai selection, but instead teach Koi selection...including the pros and cons of Tosai slection.

I couldn't agree more: Picking tosai is a subset of koi selection and the same rules apply.

In post #68 (this thread) JR said:

The culling process if a first a 'removal' of undesirable fish from the spawn and later a retaining of tategoi as they show promise to be worth more money next year and the year after.

Again, I couldn't agree more: The tosai we have to choose from are ones the breeders did not wish to keep and grow on.

Put the two together and you've got a great Tosai Picking Strategy: Just as when pitching horseshoes, closest to the stake wins (even though you know why you'll never, ever ring it).

[Dan Blatt]

"But these are not pieces of paper. They are living genetic outcomes. The breeder will flood the selection with all the males that are identifiable, All the females with no chance for secondary hi, All poor patterns. The culls with then be graded for pricing purposes. These results are sent all over the world. Your dealer might secure 100 and further re-price them based on color and pattern."

One of my Tosai purchase's....female, crap pattern, breeder junk... I'm going to use it for yard fertilizer.
Sorry, you have to follow the links in order...won't let me repost photos I have already posted. Sorry no recent photos...but still growing and improving.

Kindai Showa continues to change

Kindai Showa is Home...in the Pond

[JasPR]

that's a female fish?

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by cppond I would be interested to know this: On the occasions that you do purchase tosai, do you apply any critical analysis at all, or do you just make random purchases?

Carl . . .

Back to Steve's post #55 (I'd suggest reading it again -- this time for comprehension) where he clearly stated (in part):

. . . but instead teach Koi selection...including the pros and cons of Tosai slection. the same attributes hold true in selection, simply at a different stage of developement. [emphasis added]

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dan Blatt Steve you said...... Carl, that logic is about the same as buying 2 sets of lottery tickets. It betters your odds from 1 in 1 billion to 1 in 999,999,999. Once again, teach Koi selection, the same principles apply without the misrepresentation that your long term goals of a better koi will be substantially increased simply knowing about "Tosai". Can ya'll tell I am a big believer in "truth in advertising?" LOL Maybe I'm just dense or retirement is making me lose touch with reality. Just can't understand your reasoning on this Steve. Whether it's section of tosai, nisai, sansai, or whatever age, it is still a selection process in the evaluation of an individual koi. Breeders do it, buyers do it, dealers do it, and koi hobbyists do it. I agree with you as far as koi selection, but specifically defining by age such as tosai is in my mind is also appropriate and not the issue you make it. It's like saying if you select a tosai in a year or two get rid of it because it worthless. Funny I have 4 or 5 koi out of my 15 that I selected as tosai and they are far from finished. Another one that I won (NI Board), a Oomo showa that I did not select, I was just lucky. Several have done well when shown and all still would (if I still showed). I just think it's too much of a stretch to say all tosai we select are worthless....maybe you don't exactly mean that but that's my take on it. I personally believe everyone's long term chances of better koi are best served with an understanding of selection in every age group.

Dan, I never said that the Tosais selected are "worthless". Please quit making fakse assumptions or I'll have to reach through and smack ya upside the head. There is a difference between teaching "developement" and teaching "selection". Also, one must consider the "whys" of the audiance. Why are they at the seminar...especially when attending a koi show? I would suspect that they would want to learn about sellecting a Koi that would be "like" or have the ability some day to be "like" the winners? Will a Tosai have that ability? Koi shows are set around "standards". If development is taught, the attendees will understand why Tosai have a short shelf life and why they have bad odds at being "like" those winners.

Dan, I am happy that your 4 or 5 out of 15 Tosai are far from "finished". I have 3 out of 4 koi picked as Nisai (in the last 5 years) that are/were far from finished as well. 4 out of 4 were females, with one doing a suicide dive into my pond wall..of course the most promising of the bunch with a RGC under her belt). One difference is that these koi will have a longer shelf life than the typical Tosai since the Tosai were sold because they were not good enough for the breeder to grow on another year. But that is here nor there and its not a matter of my brother can beat your brother.

Teach the attendees that aspect of the developmental process as well so that they have realistic expectations....much like what I am attempting to do here with those that still may also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

In short, if one wants to focus on "Tosai", then focus on "Tosai developement" and not selection. A well taught Tosai Developement seminar will hilight the issues involved and allow the attendee to make a more informed buying decision...whether it's still a Tosai or an older Koi.

Carl,
On those occasions that I purchase a Tosai, I purchase based on show standards for that given day of the show. I have absolutely no expectations for the future (developement) of those purchases (I may not be the brightest bulb, but I am not niave' nor stupid).

Out of the "hundreds" of Tosai purchases I have made in nearly 15 years here are the examples of long term "Champion" results (after the Koi was 4 years old or more than 20"):

1) Aka Sanke ($19.95) turned Shiro Bekko...Mature Champion
2) Showa ($250). Adult Champion

I've had too many Baby and Young Champions to count but the above 2 were the only ones that had any type of long term results, the Showa quickly faded at about age 5 and the Shiro Bekko never made my expectations since I purchsed her as a Sanke.

Koi show awards are a measure of develeopmental success against specific standards

Now, The numerous (again, too many to count) Adult, Mature, RGC etc awards that my Koi received from purchases as Nisai or older offered many more years of enjoyment and were actually less costly on a $ per year basis. Plus the success rate of achieving the desired level of developement was/is exponentially greater.

Simply examine grow out contest results. How many of those growouts are still positively developing after 1 year? My experience shows about 10%...perhaps a tad higher? How many after 2 years....if any?

.

Steve

[koiczar]

Okay. I've just re-read all the posts on this thread. From what I have gleaned from it all is this:

I agree with SteveC that it should be "koi selection" not just narrowing it down to "tosai selection". It allows a broader range of comparison, to include why breeders keep certain fish over others at every stage of development, to allow all interested parties to learn about the developmental "process".

We're always discussing the aspects of a "proper" pond for our charges and how we need to become "masters" of water quality to allow our fish to become everything they can be. Well, IF that's the case, then why would we want to ONLY learn about tosai,(especially from the stocks that are generally shipped here for sale). when we USUALLY have the knowledge that tosai will USUALLY fall apart within a couple years. It seems to me that if you have installed a "proper koi pond" with all the right filtration, etc., you then get a handle on understanding water quality and you think you have "arrived" at a level that will allow you to support your collection in the manner they should be, and you have a collection of fish that you bought from the under $100 tanks at your local dealers, watching them go down hill starts to raise a question in people's minds of whether they really have the water quality they should. Kind of misleading isn't it? Doesn't this just tend to confuse the semi-advanced hobbyist into thinking that he/she is doing something wrong rather than understanding that the fish they purchased have just reached the end of their journey and are breaking down?

Sure is a vicious circle. I understand what Steve is talking about when comparing the rock-bottomed/proper pond analogy to koi. You do have to think about it for a few minutes but it will sink in, I promise!

Dan B

The photos of your showa show a nice progression. I would like to see some recent photos for comparison as well. JR's question still goes unanswered - That's a female? I too would like to know the answer!? I also noticed that the first two comparison photos had some text at the bottom. The first says "Japan, Oct '04 and the second says, I believe, March or April '05. This sounds like a fish that was selected from a "very high class" group IN JAPAN and then, was it kept there for a season, as your two posts imply that it "finally arrived" home the next fall?

If that's the case, again we're talking about selecting tosai HERE IN THE U S not in Japan. That's a horse (koi) of a different color, no?

Mike

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Okay. I've just re-read all the posts on this thread. From what I have gleaned from it all is this: I agree with SteveC that it should be "koi selection" not just narrowing it down to "tosai selection". It allows a broader range of comparison, to include why breeders keep certain fish over others at every stage of development, to allow all interested parties to learn about the developmental "process". We're always discussing the aspects of a "proper" pond for our charges and how we need to become "masters" of water quality to allow our fish to become everything they can be. Well, IF that's the case, then why would we want to ONLY learn about tosai,(especially from the stocks that are generally shipped here for sale). when we USUALLY have the knowledge that tosai will USUALLY fall apart within a couple years. It seems to me that if you have installed a "proper koi pond" with all the right filtration, etc., you then get a handle on understanding water quality and you think you have "arrived" at a level that will allow you to support your collection in the manner they should be, and you have a collection of fish that you bought from the under $100 tanks at your local dealers, watching them go down hill starts to raise a question in people's minds of whether they really have the water quality they should. Kind of misleading isn't it? Doesn't this just tend to confuse the semi-advanced hobbyist into thinking that he/she is doing something wrong rather than understanding that the fish they purchased have just reached the end of their journey and are breaking down? Sure is a vicious circle. I understand what Steve is talking about when comparing the rock-bottomed/proper pond analogy to koi. You do have to think about it for a few minutes but it will sink in, I promise! Dan B The photos of your showa show a nice progression. I would like to see some recent photos for comparison as well. JR's question still goes unanswered - That's a female? I too would like to know the answer!? I also noticed that the first two comparison photos had some text at the bottom. The first says "Japan, Oct '04 and the second says, I believe, March or April '05. This sounds like a fish that was selected from a "very high class" group IN JAPAN and then, was it kept there for a season, as your two posts imply that it "finally arrived" home the next fall? If that's the case, again we're talking about selecting tosai HERE IN THE U S not in Japan. That's a horse (koi) of a different color, no? Mike

At least one horse that was led to water took a drink!

[JasPR]

I would also like to see a shot of the fish as it is now 40 months after birth. I'd also like Dan to do a cut and paste from one of my posts after he posts the pic if that's OK?
Also Dan, can we get a purchase price? Current size with that current photo? Maybe another shot in that same bowl you took the other two pictures in so we can get a sense of the growth and development of the body. It would go along way in keeping this thread educational. Super tosai by the way- prime for the show. JR

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Carl . . . Back to Steve's post #55 (I'd suggest reading it again -- this time for comprehension) where he clearly stated (in part): . . . but instead teach Koi selection...including the pros and cons of Tosai slection. the same attributes hold true in selection, simply at a different stage of developement. [emphasis added]

But the fact that they are at different stages of development imply that there is a difference in how one should evaluate them AND THERFORE THE DIFFERENCE SHOULD BE TAUGHT. Since the difference should be taught, then it is valid to teach tosai selection. One does not have to learn an entire discipline in one sitting, in fact that is preposterous.

If you were to identify the characteristics that would indicate a sansai is within a year of finishing and found those same characteristics on a tosai, would you evaluate the tosai and the sansai the same? Would you tell the prospective buyer that he should expect excactly the same result from both of those fish? I think DIFFERENT standards are applied to tosai selection than are applied to nisai and sansai selection. For instance, is the fact that a showa has little to no motoguro as a tosai equivalent to the fact that a showa has little to no motoguro as a sansai? Wasn't that kind of difference one of the points of Kokugyo II? Moreover, even if people are not ever going to be in the position to evaluate and purchase quality tosai, is it wrong for people to want to learn it anyway if only for the love of the subject or the desire to understand the choices that breeders are making?

Now, having read Steve's reply, he seems to indicate that even when he purchases tosai, he his purchasing tosai using show standards which means he DOES NOT apply different standards when he purchases tosai. If that is the case, the fact that he purchases tosai does not support my argument because he is applying show standards and not making determinations as to future potential when he purchases tosai.

However, there are many people other than Steve who buy tosai with the hopes of a getting a koi that will develop into an adult and maintain the characteristics of its type. Is that an unworthy goal? Is it an impossible goal?

Here's an open question. Below are two premises and a conclusion. With which, if any, do you disagree?

1. One should not apply the same standards to purchasing tosai as they do to sansai. unless you are evaluating for today.

2. People do purchase tosai.

3. It is worthwhile to teach people how to maximize their purchases of tosai.

[JasPR]

"However, there are many people other than Steve who buy tosai with the hopes of a getting a koi that will develop into an adult and maintain the characteristics of its type."

what does this mean? JR