Tateshita??

[Erns]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR

JR, to me this one (yes the body looks realy good) looks like it will be a very black showa when the sumi comes through?

Why would this one be 400 000Yen? It looks like the benni is allready breaking off?

[JasPR]

Erns, the fish I like will have its sumi tighten up quite a bit. It will be a more traditional look in that the sumi will be plentiful but not as strong a finished pattern as it appears now. See that sumi patch within the greater sumi patch along the right side, near the second half of the body? That darker patch will be the center of that sumi area and the rest will either disappear or remail 'smokey'. This fish has strong white and well placed shiro such as on the shoulder ( dead center of shoulder) and tend to Lift the heavy effect of the sumi. The face will also clear up with most of that sumi fading away or concentrating into more defined sections.

I kinda think I get why the second fish you posted is priced that way? The fish has a long body and is likely a potential jumbo. Very matsunosuke like or maybe Momotaro like? The beni is not a problem on the back/shoulder that is the type of kiwa it has- it will tighten as the fish slows growing into a classic scalloped/maruzome kiwa. That is a good thing. The beni in the rear is suspect and the entire rear pattern is weak. So I assume it is being priced for size potential, strong sumi and kiwa impression. JR

[Erns]

Ok, so 'kage' sumi will not always turn all black? I was told that most of the time it finishes as solid sumi, on the face too... now i've got revise the way I select showa! Some tips please JR? Use some of the fish from this site if you can?

[JasPR]

sumi on showa can be very sexist! If you are talking males and females your opinion must remain fluid and within context.
Some showa fish from front to back and others, from back to front.

Kage is a much abused term! there is a 'kage pattern' which is not unlike kanoko in beni. It is a real reticulated pattern to the sumi. Unfinshed sumi however is just that- unfinished. People seem to now and recognize deep beni stars in young beni plates ( thanks to Tosai Sakai's teachings) as part of beni development overall. But they have not, as of yet, come to recognize sumi development within a region of sumi.
It is helpful to look at sumi development this way- sumi gathers together around a center point within skin. But the skin is also growing and covering these gathering cells making then seem to disappear as the skin deepens and covers the sumi concentration. So as a baby is black and then all the sumi 'goes down' and then 'rises' again, it is really just layers of sumi cells that are appearing in the new dermis and epidermis being formed.
So males are thinner skinned than females and finish earlier. That is why they are more dramatic and prettier/finished when young. Females will have deep complex dermis and deep dermis with layers of fat cells. And sumi cells are attracted to fat cells as gathering points. So females always will have the densier sumi and the nicer quality sumi in the long run. Not to say that sharp quickly finished males don't have very attractive sumi. But if they don't finish soon they will never finish. That is not kage sumi-- that is poorly concentrated sumi.
In the case of smokely looking sumi in otherwise great females with finished sumi, that is sumi cells traped in layers of skin and not the same as having poor amounts of sumi cells . So for males, it is lack of numbers in a section of skin in a one dimensional situation. And for females, it is a three dimensional issue with either lack of numbers per depth area of skin or dense skin hidding deeper sumi. This gives a different effect.

[aquitori]

Hey JR, you spoke about body types, with Dainichi having big heads and a stout body...At some point in this years All-Japan GC's development it could have started off that way too?
ALL Japan GC


Nogoysai GC

[JasPR]

great examples of showa. You can see that kiwa I was talking with Erns about before. Super crisp colors all finished perfectly. And body perfect- the pattern gets pretty secondary except for the face and shoulder which still count for something about the overall impression of the fish. JR

[MikeM]

Unless there is a representation otherwise, I would assume that these are inventory fish that did not sell for one reason or another. Now time to clear stock for the 2008 harvest. I don't think such koi would be offered via internet through dealers around the world if just harvested. That does not mean that these are not good buys. The pricing may well be as good as it gets for the quality involved from this breeder. I got an Omosako Shiro that way for a price I'd not otherwise have paid for a koi not seen in person by anyone in the U.S., but far below what she had been priced early in the year. My observation has been that spending the third season in an inventory tank is followed by a strong growth spurt when given normal pond care.

[PapaBear]

JR,
In the video of the AJS GC I notice deeply submerged sumi with a soft smokey/foggy look in places along the lateral line. Is that the look of Smokey Sumi on a mature female you were talking about?

BTW, DAMN that is a beautiful fish...

[JasPR]

Good Morning Larry!

If we are looking at the same thing, on the AJ GC then that is sashi or the insertion of white into the sumi area. And that can happen on any part of the body where deep sumi meets high class shiroji. In kohaku the Japanese often say that the blurred area of beni meeting shiro ground is a 'good thing'. This can be taken as a sign of quality color but the koi student needs to know why otherwise it is just a distraction from the crisp lines of color plates. So praising sashi is really an appreciation of quality elements of the right skin and the impressive depth of color ( beni or sumi). This is not to be confused with an unfinished fish in which color cells have not tightened yet as part of a natural maturity. This is the same lesson as understanding that all tategoiu are unfinished but not all unfinished fish are tategoi.

So we are talking about three subjects here:

1) kage patterned showa and shiros
2) unfinished sumi
3) sashi


Here is a shiro showing extensive true sumi. You can see on this fish that the sumi pattern is never going to fill in or turn this into an all black fish. The plot thickens here as there really are two types of kage, one arising from asagi reticulation and another from karasu and goromo. But at least this picture will allow you to see that 'kage' is as much about sumi patterns as it is about an area of sumi that might appear undeveloped by the casual eye.
And too be clear, 'kage' is often used by judges and breeders as a general description of a look and not a suggestion that a fish is truly a kage specimen. Not unlike calling a large bull, a 'real moose'!

[PapaBear]

Thanks for the explanation and the pic. That is a truly interesting Shiro. The overall impression it makes is fascinating.