Damned if I do, Damned if I dont..lost my favorite koi

[KoiCop]

Stan . . .

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your 'big hammer' approach to injecting Baytril

Here's a well-reasoned post by Michael Van Neste (a British koi keeper) on the NI board. He had a 30" koi with bulging eyes, swelling on the front end and some raised scales right behind the pecs which he treated successfully.

I'm putting his post up here so that folks can see that injecting koi involves a lot more than mg/kg -- and Michael does an excellent job of stepping us through some of those factors.
*****
Okay. Firstly I would say that I rarely use antibiotics on my koi. In a pond with good water and not over-stocked, koi rarely fall ill.

Even when I suspect that, maybe, antibiotics may help in a situation, I usually wait and see, and there is normally no need to hurry with treatment and usually these hardy animals will recover from injuries, viral infections etc.

This case was different. I knew immediately that intervention was the only hope and that time was not on my side.

I chose Baytril because it was amazingly successful in the case of another koi in my pond 18 months ago, which developed a large swelling on the side of its body. Baytril is a wide-spectrum antibiotic that is used widely in animal husbandry and successfully in koi. It is also readily available from vets. Another advantage is that it can be injected in small quantities, so that pectoral muscle injections can be utilised (more later).

The dosing rate I chose was 5 mg/kg. I have read that you can double or even treble this.

I also deliberately under-estimated the weight of the koi (slightly). I worked on the basis that it was 8 kgs (16 lbs UK). My vet made up 5 syringes each of .75mltrs of 5% Baytril.

I used the standard 3 injections daily followed by two injections every other day, so that the course lasted a week.

Initially there was an improvement in symptoms, followed by what appeared to be aggravated syptoms. Nevertheless I finished the course.

What occured is all too clear, it seems to me. The antibiotic had a beneficial effect to start with, but then the "cure" itself became a problem. The organs of the koi were almost overwhelmed with masses of decaying bacteria. The koi continued to be protected from further bacterial infection by the concluding injections. Then it had to survive and to clear its blood and organs from the residue of the problem. It took several more days to do this.

Administration: The koi remained in my main pond for the entire treatment. I would catch it with minimum stress and place it in a bowl containing MS222 and sodium bicarbonate in equal quantities (my pond water has low pH buffering potential). I waited for partial anaesthesia. There is no need to lift the koi out or to wait for total anaesthsia. I turned the koi on its side, lifted the pectoral fin, and inserted the needle in the direction from the front to the back of the muscle. (You should be careful, of course, not to push the needle right through). The syringe was a 1 mtlr diabetic syringe. After injecting, I left the needle in place for another 20 seconds, carefully massaging the area. I alternated from left to right side, each time I injected.

Recovery of the koi was quite quick, about 30 seconds, each time on its return to the main pond.

I chose a low dosage course because of the probable possibility that the organs of the koi were compromised by whatever infection may be involved. On the one hand you do want to eradicate the infection, but on the other hand you don't need to give already compromised organs more than they can handle.

That's why I would never suggest a stronger dosage of Baytril on an internal problem. If I was dealing with an infected external injury, a stronger dose might be indicated. I also prefer a seven day course for an internal infection, the effects of which are more gradual than say a single dose treatment.

Also, small injections into the pectoral muscles are much easier to administer than injections of larger quantities which have to be made into the tail muscle which involves a higher level of anaesthesia and lifting the koi out. Also, scale damage and a site for infection can result.

These are all my own observations and conclusions based on my own experiences. I am not qualified in any aspect of animal husbandry and anyone with alternative views should make them known for the greater benefit of the koi hobby.
*****

This point is critical, so please bear with me while I repeat it:

I chose a low dosage course because of the probable possibility that the organs of the koi were compromised by whatever infection may be involved. On the one hand you do want to eradicate the infection, but on the other hand you don't need to give already compromised organs more than they can handle.

*****

Think about it: Big shot = massive bacterial kill = organ overload = dead fish.

And that's precisely why the recommended dose for Baytril is 5 mg/kg and the injection schedule stretches over a full week (x/x/x/skip/x/skip/x).

FYI, the full threads can be viewed at:

Photos of showa; growth vs dropsy? - Michael Van Neste 9/12/2007, 2:06 pm

and

My showa is cured - Michael Van Neste 9/22/2007, 4:59 pm

[Brutuscz]

Sorry...but well reasoned is not always correct. When an infection is life or limb threatening...we hit it with a big hammer. We save the little hammers for mild things. A full body cellulitis with sepsis requires heavy duty antibiotics to have a chance. Unfortunately, I didn't have the ability to get a culture and sensitivity. If I had..I would have known the nuflor would not be effective. When I treat patients, I can easily get that information. With koi...it's not as quick or simple.
Just to reiterate...I've used this dosage in the past, and it has worked just fine. This fish was just too far gone by the time I saw the cellulitis.

[saratogatan]

I don't know who to believe, but we have few vet in the family, and none has problem with 20mg/kg 'if it works', 'cause even the pharma, bayer, does not have any clue on the dosage. The 5 mg/kg Bayer used is based on 1, and only one, experience carried out by someone in germany, and there was not information on what the poison was treating. The only reliable info was the residual in the subject's body over a period of time. They even have a type of small fish, can't remember what, listed for 10mg/kg. Go figure.

My vet told me 10mg/kg, he was the only one treating koi on this side of the bay. I experimented with dosage from 5mg to 25mg. The 25mg experiment subject went straight to koi heaven. Nothing happened with 10mg/kg or lesss. After the experiment, I concluded that dosage between 15mg/kg to 20mg/kg is the most effective. But with 20mg, I can adminstrate the poison every other day, which save the koi from handling stress.

SO, whatever dosage you prefer, if it works, great. If it does not, sorry, try again.
BTW, I only use 1 dosage, either I ddo it or not.

I totally agree with the original posting on recovery, but I like to stress the important of not aggrevating the koi's pain with extra stress.

stan

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by saratogatan I don't know who to believe, but we have few vet in the family, and none has problem with 20mg/kg 'if it works', 'cause even the pharma, bayer, does not have any clue on the dosage. The 5 mg/kg Bayer used is based on 1, and only one, experience carried out by someone in germany, and there was not information on what the poison was treating. The only reliable info was the residual in the subject's body over a period of time. They even have a type of small fish, can't remember what, listed for 10mg/kg. Go figure. My vet told me 10mg/kg, he was the only one treating koi on this side of the bay. I experimented with dosage from 5mg to 25mg. The 25mg experiment subject went straight to koi heaven. Nothing happened with 10mg/kg or lesss. After the experiment, I concluded that dosage between 15mg/kg to 20mg/kg is the most effective. But with 20mg, I can adminstrate the poison every other day, which save the koi from handling stress. SO, whatever dosage you prefer, if it works, great. If it does not, sorry, try again. BTW, I only use 1 dosage, either I ddo it or not. I totally agree with the original posting on recovery, but I like to stress the important of not aggrevating the koi's pain with extra stress. stan

Well, I can honestly state I have no idea how many Kg my koi weighs. I think it is mostly a guess. I was given the dosage from a koi wholesaler and stuck with it. No problems in the past. I just wish it would have helped this time.

[saratogatan]

B,
you can net the koi, pad it on the back ask ask it gently : 'how much do you weight ?". Just kidding. We all guess in this hobby, the different is whether we admit it or not. The is a guesstimate koi weight by length in koivet dot com.
stan

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Sorry...but well reasoned is not always correct.

Well, Bob, I'm not the one with the dead fish who'se posting "I'm not sure what I could have done differently?"

Look . . .

1. I'm just trying to help, so please don't get all defensive on us.

2. Plus, there are other folks wanting to learn about properly dosing Bayril.

Dosing injections without a vet is always problematic. But if I was going to do it, I'd sure as hell want to do it based on sound advice -- not on so-and-so said such-and-such or some hobbyist's crude backyard experimentation.

Michael Anderson (MCA) put together a nice .pdf file on dosing Baytril which correlates length/weight (in both in/lb and cm/gram); it calculates cc's @ 2.27%, 5% & 10%; and it covers dosing rates of 5mg/kg (Bayer's & my vet's recommended rate), 10mg/kg and 14mg/kg.

For example, your koi @ 14" (or 35.56 cms) should have weighed approx. 1.663lb (or 754 grams); @ a dosing rate of 5mg/kg, it recommends .166 cc's of 2.27%, or .075 cc's of 5%, or .038 cc's of 10% Baytril.

So: How does that compare to your.5ml shot @ unknown concentration?

PS: I'd be happy to send MCA's .pdf file to you or to anyone else who wants it -- just PM me with your email addy.

[Steve Nguyen]

Don,

this seems too excessive in handling the fish. glad to see it did die from the stress put on it.

Is this a proven method or just a one time thing? if it's a one time thing, then may be luck has something to do with it.

also, condition of his fish illness seems to be different from Bob's fish.

Steve

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Stan . . . I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your 'big hammer' approach to injecting Baytril Here's a well-reasoned post by Michael Van Neste (a British koi keeper) on the NI board. He had a 30" koi with bulging eyes, swelling on the front end and some raised scales right behind the pecs which he treated successfully. I'm putting his post up here so that folks can see that injecting koi involves a lot more than mg/kg -- and Michael does an excellent job of stepping us through some of those factors. ***** Okay. Firstly I would say that I rarely use antibiotics on my koi. In a pond with good water and not over-stocked, koi rarely fall ill. Even when I suspect that, maybe, antibiotics may help in a situation, I usually wait and see, and there is normally no need to hurry with treatment and usually these hardy animals will recover from injuries, viral infections etc. This case was different. I knew immediately that intervention was the only hope and that time was not on my side. I chose Baytril because it was amazingly successful in the case of another koi in my pond 18 months ago, which developed a large swelling on the side of its body. Baytril is a wide-spectrum antibiotic that is used widely in animal husbandry and successfully in koi. It is also readily available from vets. Another advantage is that it can be injected in small quantities, so that pectoral muscle injections can be utilised (more later). The dosing rate I chose was 5 mg/kg. I have read that you can double or even treble this. I also deliberately under-estimated the weight of the koi (slightly). I worked on the basis that it was 8 kgs (16 lbs UK). My vet made up 5 syringes each of .75mltrs of 5% Baytril. I used the standard 3 injections daily followed by two injections every other day, so that the course lasted a week. Initially there was an improvement in symptoms, followed by what appeared to be aggravated syptoms. Nevertheless I finished the course. What occured is all too clear, it seems to me. The antibiotic had a beneficial effect to start with, but then the "cure" itself became a problem. The organs of the koi were almost overwhelmed with masses of decaying bacteria. The koi continued to be protected from further bacterial infection by the concluding injections. Then it had to survive and to clear its blood and organs from the residue of the problem. It took several more days to do this. Administration: The koi remained in my main pond for the entire treatment. I would catch it with minimum stress and place it in a bowl containing MS222 and sodium bicarbonate in equal quantities (my pond water has low pH buffering potential). I waited for partial anaesthesia. There is no need to lift the koi out or to wait for total anaesthsia. I turned the koi on its side, lifted the pectoral fin, and inserted the needle in the direction from the front to the back of the muscle. (You should be careful, of course, not to push the needle right through). The syringe was a 1 mtlr diabetic syringe. After injecting, I left the needle in place for another 20 seconds, carefully massaging the area. I alternated from left to right side, each time I injected. Recovery of the koi was quite quick, about 30 seconds, each time on its return to the main pond. I chose a low dosage course because of the probable possibility that the organs of the koi were compromised by whatever infection may be involved. On the one hand you do want to eradicate the infection, but on the other hand you don't need to give already compromised organs more than they can handle. That's why I would never suggest a stronger dosage of Baytril on an internal problem. If I was dealing with an infected external injury, a stronger dose might be indicated. I also prefer a seven day course for an internal infection, the effects of which are more gradual than say a single dose treatment. Also, small injections into the pectoral muscles are much easier to administer than injections of larger quantities which have to be made into the tail muscle which involves a higher level of anaesthesia and lifting the koi out. Also, scale damage and a site for infection can result. These are all my own observations and conclusions based on my own experiences. I am not qualified in any aspect of animal husbandry and anyone with alternative views should make them known for the greater benefit of the koi hobby. ***** This point is critical, so please bear with me while I repeat it: I chose a low dosage course because of the probable possibility that the organs of the koi were compromised by whatever infection may be involved. On the one hand you do want to eradicate the infection, but on the other hand you don't need to give already compromised organs more than they can handle. ***** Think about it: Big shot = massive bacterial kill = organ overload = dead fish. And that's precisely why the recommended dose for Baytril is 5 mg/kg and the injection schedule stretches over a full week (x/x/x/skip/x/skip/x). FYI, the full threads can be viewed at: Photos of showa; growth vs dropsy? - Michael Van Neste 9/12/2007, 2:06 pm and My showa is cured - Michael Van Neste 9/22/2007, 4:59 pm

[KoiCop]

Steve . . .

I don't know how long folks have been using Baytril on koi and following the shoot/shoot/shoot/skip/shoot/skip/shoot protocol, but Doc Johnson outlined the same protocol in his 1997 book Koi Health and Disease (p. 67). It's the same protocol my vet (Dr. Rob Hildreth) had me follow the last time we had a koi that needed antibiotics.

Since that's been the protocol for at least ten years without changing, I think we would have to agree that it's not too stressful and that it is a proven method.

And while some folks like a higher than recommended doseage, the problem with that was precisely the point that Michael made. Kill all the bacteria in a koi with a massive internal infection at once and you can kiss your koi goodbye from organ overload; the damaged organs simply cannot process all the waste. It's like adding a massive dose of algae fix to your pond and watching your filters crash from the overload.

As for your observation about the condition of the two fish being different, isn't that always the case?

[saratogatan]

Don,
If you read carefully the bayer's doc I posted on koivet n-years ago, you will not find 'recommended dossage' for koi. In fact, it 'referred' the result someone obtained in 1 test, and that person used 'measured in-tissue residual' to conclude the effectiveness of the dose, which is the holly 5mg/kg dosage. Doc Johnson recommended 14mg/kg, and that is result of treating many koi.
about the s/s/s/s/s thing, Bayer's refrences said '10 consecutive shot daily', so you are not following bayer's 'recommendation'.

The dosages and regiments are all invented somehow. Some hear say, some from experimenting. Yes, my experiements was crude, but none of the dosages so far has any merit either. They were obtained pretty much the same way I got mine, except for the test cited by Bayer.

The merit of the dosage is, DO NOT mix regiments. Get a vet, make sure s/he scope the wound if there is one, follow the instruction. If the koi says bye-bye, let your vet know so s/he learn something.

For newcomers, hold the antibiotic, used it only when absolutely needed. If you mis-use it, you risk creating bugs that take the antibiotic for lunch.

stan

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Well, Bob, I'm not the one with the dead fish who'se posting "I'm not sure what I could have done differently?" Look . . . 1. I'm just trying to help, so please don't get all defensive on us. 2. Plus, there are other folks wanting to learn about properly dosing Bayril. Dosing injections without a vet is always problematic. But if I was going to do it, I'd sure as hell want to do it based on sound advice -- not on so-and-so said such-and-such or some hobbyist's crude backyard experimentation. Michael Anderson (MCA) put together a nice .pdf file on dosing Baytril which correlates length/weight (in both in/lb and cm/gram); it calculates cc's @ 2.27%, 5% & 10%; and it covers dosing rates of 5mg/kg (Bayer's & my vet's recommended rate), 10mg/kg and 14mg/kg. For example, your koi @ 14" (or 35.56 cms) should have weighed approx. 1.663lb (or 754 grams); @ a dosing rate of 5mg/kg, it recommends .166 cc's of 2.27%, or .075 cc's of 5%, or .038 cc's of 10% Baytril. So: How does that compare to your.5ml shot @ unknown concentration? PS: I'd be happy to send MCA's .pdf file to you or to anyone else who wants it -- just PM me with your email addy.

Don..are you saying you never had a fish die?? Somehow, I doubt it. That dosage you list is very low...almost useless. I want to see someone accurately draw up .166cc of anything in a syringe..lol. I only get defensive when people play monday morning quarterback..and quote anectodal information to back it up. That whole article you listed has no scientific basis whatsoever. I never for a minute thought the fish died of medication overdose. It was a last ditch effort to save a septic fish. Definitely not over the line. Seriously, I treat limb threatening infections for a living...trust me when I say it died of sepsis. I was just second guessing my initial treatment of nuflor, iodone and return to the pond. Maybe I should have started the baytril first and hospital tanked the fish. I just wanted some feedback on this and wondered what others would have done first?