metallic ochiba

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by cantonguy Should be into Kawari or Hikari Moyo class ?

It all depends on the which set of rules the show is using.

I know that ZNA and AKCA do not agree on benching rules for kiko and beni kiko -- ZNA to Kawari and AKCA to Hikari Moyo -- so I'm guessing the same split would occur here.

As I recall, ZNA benching emphasizes the koi's breeding/evolution (total package), so Kogane-Ochiba would probably be benched with Ochiba in Kawari. With metallics, however, AKCA benching focuses solely on the skin -- so all metallics would benched in one of the three available Hikari categories (Mono, Moyo & Utsuri). And in the case of Kogane-Ochiba that would be in Hikari Moyo.

Hmmm . . . wonder how the BKKS addresses this issue?

Hopefully, someone like JR will be along shortly to explain it all better than I have.

[MCA]

Our shows are only using AKCA Judges/standards. So no problem for us.

[JasPR]

Don, I've tried this before with my AKCA brethren and they ' ain't have'n it'! LOls
But for the serious koi student I'll give it another try. From the early Japanese koi breeders all the way through to the beginnings of ZNA and the establishment of the ZNA judging association the way people learned about varieties is by the study of koi genetics as a continuum. If you look at magoi mutations as The 'stone' dropped in the water, you can then see the 'genetic ripples' radiating out from center point.
ZNA teaches beginner koi students that nishikigoi are either white based or black based. And these are the two lines of nishikigoi generating from magoi mutations. Further, koi are divided into only four genetic patterns. From this arise the ogons, the gosanke, the karasu and all other varieties.

Hikari are divided into three groups. And the ones that western judges focus in on are the one colored ones ( hikari muji) and the two colored ones ( hikari moyo). But in Japan there is a deeper understanding of these groups.
The muji are ogon based types of SOLID patterns. The moyo types are white based fish of the dorsal and lateral pattern. This moyo group is further divided in into hariwaki types and moyo types. So the closest to hikari muji would be hikarimoyo of the moyo type- that is, a cross of two hikari-muji to make a two colored hikari moyo. YOu could take a yamabuki ogon, a muji, and cross with another muji like purachina and make a hariwaki moyo of the moyo type.
The next 'genetic ripple' away from hikari muji would be to cross a hikari muji ( like a purachina) with ALMOST any other variety of koi. This would produce that variety only with metallic sheen. But I said ALMOST any other variety.
For black based fish this crossing does not apply.

In the west we see shiny and see the underlying variety and can't understand why those whacky and crazy Japanese don't get the obvious. It is two colors. It is shiny--- DAaaaa! But those same western experts need not look too far to get the beginning of the deeper answer. They should begin by asking themselves " why is there a hikari utsuri class?" After all, a shiny shiro utsuri is two colors and it is metallic. It also should be a hikari moyo? Right? But it is not. It is placed in Hikari utsuri to re-enforce the lesson of the genetics of the varieties as a big picture study of nishikigoi genetics.
In the case of ochiba, it is a kawari. It was created by using two different varieties. It is now, much later being made metallic. If it and most of the karasu- compound varieties are made metallic ( not a hard thing to do) then hikari utsuri no longer makes any sense either and should be done away with also as kawarimono all roll into hikari moyo due to shiny skin. And with no consideration to the most basic tenent of white and black based fish all kawari can be moved to ginrin or hikari when the skin shines. For me however this will be a case of the shiny skin wagging the koi!

Along these lines, we have long suggested that ginrin A and ginrin B be created because the A fish will always seem to win. But this separation is not a politically correct decision to help the self esteem of exhibitors. This is a division of genetic groups with the higher evolved fish competing with their peers and the rest competing amongst themselves. But I digress--- JR

[MikeM]

I'm looking forward to the koi that is metallic only on the white ground, with non-metallic step patterning. ... some day.

[KoiCop]

JR . . .

Thanks for that answer. Knew we could count on you.

Have some FU questions, but first would you please confirm (as per ZNA teachings) whether or not:

All solid patterned koi are considered back based?
All dorsal patterned koi are considered white based?
All wrapping patterned koi are considered black based?
All lateral patterned koi are considered black based?

Thanks,

[schildkoi]

I love getting JR wound up on this subject.

Great genetics lesson JR.......but, here's a simple question or two for you.

Are all Kawarigoi varieties black based?

Is not metallic skin also part of a genetic code?

Careful there my friend...tread lightly, you know where I am going next. Oh, no "spinning" allowed either

Ahhhhhh, just like old times!

Steve

[JasPR]

No those would be two separate considerations, shiro muji for instance is a solid pattern ( failed pattern actually).

The story of koi goes back to black and white based fish. And it is this ancestory that ultimately 'fixes' the variety. In effect , a pattern is formed on a black fish when then the white spreading gene travels over the fish leaving areas of pattern as black. This white spreading gene will work the same way with red fish and create a kohaku from a red fish. When the white spreading gene becomes dominate ( spots or mutations) we have a white based fish ( remember all koi are from magoi originally). The Japanese see this , due to intense efforts on their part as koi evolving to ever higher levels of refinement as they move away from the wild type.
Nature has a way of creating counter reactions in genes. So pushing 'against' the success of the white spreading gene is the atavistic gene. Atavism is defined as the reversion to wild type. So the Atavistic gene pushes back the mutant white spreading gene to for additional islands of color- or patterns. To complicate matters, the effect of these genes can be combined in layers.
Hopeful I explained this well enough to have the reader appreciate that white and black based fish are fundamental to nishikigoi and that further, this push and pull between regression to wild type and purposeful efforts to concentrate mutant white spreading genes creates four distinct patterns.

[JasPR]

Steve, Kawarimono is 'all others ones'. Of that catch all 'bull pen' group are genetic dead ends, hybrids, and non metallic ogons. The main 'family' of fish relegated to kawari are indeed black based fish of the karasu clan. The other main family would be non-metallic ogons.

If you got the metaphor I gave of a genetic pebble dropped in the water and the genetic ripples that are created from there, then you can appreciate how karasu was developed.
The white spreading gene is very active in these black based koi. Just as it is very active in the red mutation. So in the first appearence of white spreading gene, we see the tips of fins becoming white on a black fish. The same is true of the all red fish- first we see the tips of the fin becoming white. In the next advancement we see ALL the 'flags'( fins) become white as well as the chin and belly. Then in the next stage of refinement we see the head become white.
This is the genetics that brought us all the black based kawari. And in another 'pebble' dropped into the genetic pool, changed benigoi into akabenigoi and eventually kohaku.
I once posted on NI my power point presentation of the basic magoi stock used to create all nishikigoi. And I also posted the natural color morphs and mutations that made for the next evolutionary step in koi design. It is from these combinations that all varieties flow. If you follow the lines the bigger lesson begins to unfold. And since varieties are a function of koi shows, the classifications take on deeper meaning, beyond simple competitive advantage or preferences, as you apply these genetic lines to the names. - JR

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Steve, Kawarimono is 'all others ones'. Of that catch all 'bull pen' group are genetic dead ends, hybrids, and non metallic ogons. The main 'family' of fish relegated to kawari are indeed black based fish of the karasu clan. The other main family would be non-metallic ogons. If you got the metaphor I gave of a genetic pebble dropped in the water and the genetic ripples that are created from there, then you can appreciate how karasu was developed. The white spreading gene is very active in these black based koi. Just as it is very active in the red mutation. So in the first appearence of white spreading gene, we see the tips of fins becoming white on a black fish. The same is true of the all red fish- first we see the tips of the fin becoming white. In the next advancement we see ALL the 'flags'( fins) become white as well as the chin and belly. Then in the next stage of refinement we see the head become white. This is the genetics that brought us all the black based kawari. And in another 'pebble' dropped into the genetic pool, changed benigoi into akabenigoi and eventually kohaku. I once posted on NI my power point presentation of the basic magoi stock used to create all nishikigoi. And I also posted the natural color morphs and mutations that made for the next evolutionary step in koi design. It is from these combinations that all varieties flow. If you follow the lines the bigger lesson begins to unfold. And since varieties are a function of koi shows, the classifications take on deeper meaning, beyond simple competitive advantage or preferences, as you apply these genetic lines to the names. - JR

OK Jim, although the non bolded section makes for nice reading, let's concentrate on the bolded section shall we? Oh, and let's throw in some logic as well? First off, as you said, Kawari is for "all others." As you also state, its also for some non black based koi as well....you state the other "main family" as "non-metallic Ogons." So in fact, Kawari is NOT limited to black based koi at all and even some other black based koi have been moved out of Kawari into their own or other classifications over the years (goromo and goshiki come to mind along with the variances in Tanchos for that matter being moved out of their respective parent classes into their own). So, why is it not "logical" to move metallic versions of kumonryu out of Kawari and into a Hakari class? Afterall, metallic ogons do not compete in Kawari as their genetic cousins do? Personally, once the Doitsu class was "opened up," I think that Kumonryus should compete there...but that is just me talking.

The whole idea of "judging classifications" is to present like "types" of koi that have reasonable charachteristics in common for them to compete against one another. Now can a metallic koi be compared to a non metallic koi? One of the main charachteristics for Hakari classes is the "sheen". In Kawari, the comparisons between "types" (hakari and non hakari koi) would be useless, apples and oranges.

As the markets change and breeders develope (of just fail to cull) these new metallic "varieties," under ZNA benching standards, and even the suggested AKCA standards, the line is going to get duller and duller and perhaps consideration should be given to a Hakari Kawari class?

Steve

[KoiCop]

JR . . .

Are you then saying that solid color koi (other than shiro muji -- I understand this exception) are considered black based?