metallic ochiba

[JasPR]

Dang, that was good speech-a-fy'en there Steve! Very Clarence Darrow like.


Don, there is no question that black based fish are 'clustered up' in kawari. The main line of koi filling the varieties with Utsuri, showa, goromo, hikari utsuri, asagi/shusui are black based with kohaku, tancho, sanke, bekko, hikari moyo ( white based hikari) being historically white based.
Kate McGill does an excellent job in her book Koi Appreciation breaking these varieties out as subdivisions of white and black based. This is probably the best western account of the varieties base colors, lineage and evolution of any book I have read outside of the Japanese ZNA and Japanese breeders.

For my buddy 'Clarence', we can argue the merits of why western judges want varieties redefined based on current western logic and feelings. But in the end we will not agree it seems?
I'll leave you with this quote from the very knowledgable Satoru Hoshino :

" I think it is very embarrassing that the koi's roots are unknown, and names are yet to be given properly."

and so it goes, koi continues to teach humility. JR

[MikeM]

JR: Forget the semantic debate for a moment. Got those pics (post 18) at hand? I'd like to see the full group.

[JasPR]

Evening Mike. You don't remember those? The sketches. They weren't pictures, just color drawings. JR

[JasPR]

Mike I assume you don't need to see the sketches? I thought I give a general overview here for anyone interested-

The magoi is the foundation stock for what would be the 12 nishikigoi varieties. And within the twelve varieties are close to 150 breeds or types ( past and present). Many of these 'breeds' are actually hybrids and in some cases just color morphs.

The magoi was never one fish however. It was a complex of four variations of common carp. Japanese history of trading and isolation and Japan's unique geography, which separated people and wildlife by high mountain ranges and challenging terrain, created four domestic and often feral common carp.
The magoi was a black common carp
The asagi magoi was a blue black variation ( natural mutation)
The Doro magoi or muddy carp ( a deep/brown mustard yellow common carp)
The Tetsu magoi or iron carp ( a grey silver or grey blue/black carp)

The actual creation of these four varieties is a unique event and is open to speculation by scientists and amateurs. It is very likely that this genetic 'carp stew' was the result of native species crossed with imported species from China, Korea and Europe ( Portugese sailors and early European traders housed in Nagasaki).
Here is a color depiction of the four magoi races of common carp that all nishikigoi were originally created from -

[MikeM]

I misunderstood. I am familiar with those sketches. I would very much like to have photos of those original carp types. I realize none exist from the 1800s! But, color photos of 'wild' (feral?) carp that are reasonable examples of these types would be very informative, especially with close-ups of scalation and abdominal coloration.

It is reasonable to suppose that there were many random crossings of the types along the way, and at some point individual specimens exhibiting some variation (if only in more even tones of brown, or hint of orange) were selected for keeping, followed by random crosing among those selected for keeping, and eventually purposeful crossing. The presence of decorative ponds in the gardens within the fortresses of medieval Japan was relatively common, and only natural that fish would be introduced. The hardiness of carp gave an advantage for survival, just as their mythical auspiciousness would make them more desirable than common minnows.

For me, one of the fascinations of koi is in seeing them in their historical context and appreciating the enormous effort expended over centuries to produce the fine koi of today. There is so much to admire, in even a Shiromuji. Imagine how wondrous a 24" Shiromuji would have been when first seen.

[JasPR]

The natural mutations of common carp are not all that rare. And China had white, black and red carp long before the Japanese did. The red carp are probably the most common sport as a DILUTE gene for black. But no one but the Japanese took the time to separate the sports from the crop and actually breed them. In the case of the Chinese, they collected sports in one place ( royal ponds and the like) as did the Japanese royalty but not until those intrepid mountain people did experimental breedings did we see mutation genes concentrated to such an extent that they could actually battle back against natural's atavistic genes.
I have some pictures of old magoi ( 1900s) that I'll try and find.

Some 'natural' sports or mutations of common carp---

[JasPR]

Mike, you've seen this before but here is shot of Lake Biwa's original carp. Some say they are little changed over a century and can easily be distinguished from feral food carp also inhabiting the lake.
I believe this as naturalists and ichthyologists have noted that in the eastern European water ways, common and imperial carp segregate themselves from feral domestic carp.

[JasPR]

the true common carp can actually be quite beautiful and not look much like a black koi at all.

[MikeM]

Common, yes. But even in such an ordinary carp there is a characteristic that not every ol' carp possesses... the white abdomen, with individual dark pigmented scales showing at the edge and no orange tones. The one below hints at the genes that in another time and fish led to Asagi.

[MikeM]

In regard to wild varieties segregating themselves, I can understand that. I have a Showa with obvious magoi features. When she first arrived, she separated herself as new fish sometimes do. I did not think much of it at first. As months went by, it became clear that her behavior was simply different. She would stay away from the others. She did not school with them. Even at feeding time she would hover outside the zone of activity. I have had her a few years now. Her behavior remains different She no longer avoids the others, but does not particularly join with them. Her swimming style is different... less bending of the body. There is a stiffness in her movement compared to others. She tends to skim the surface with her mouth open to get floating pellets, while the others will come to the surface to get a pellet or two and then swim downward. She prefers to stay within inches of the surface when floating pellets are being fed. Her grazing behavior also differs. Altogether, simply an odd fish. But I can readily imagine her segregating herself from other sorts by her behaviors.