Yellow Shusui?

[PapaBear]

It can be amusing to see some of the contradictory information scattered about the web. (Thanks for the translation Kari) A fish is what it is, and then there is marketing... If blackwater, etal are marketing Ki Shusui, look to see if they are metallic before you jump to conclusions about yours being the same.
Midorigoi are "shusui-like"???
Hmmmmmmm....... They're both Koi, so I guess that could be sorta right.

[dizzyfish]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Mitch First of all, shusui, be it standard, Hana or Hi Shusui, are all NON METALLIC fish. This fish IS METALLIC and therefor cannot be classified as a shusui. It also is not a Hariwake as it has reticulated scales on the back. Hariwake are a two color fish with no netted pattern to the scales. A Kujaku , in it's standard scaled form, should have a very clean netted or reticulated pattern in black/grey along the back. If it is doitsu, then the scales along the dorsal line should also be netted or reticulated. The fish you posted is definitely not a shusui nor a hariwake. Most folks would call it a Ki- Kujaku. If the Japanese have given it another name, I'm not aware of it, but will check next week while in Japan. Mike

This is just my opinion, but if a fish can be reproduced with the same characteristics then it deserves its own name. When I think of Kujaku I generally think of a random pattern and not the symmetry that is exhibited in the photos I posted.(Note: This is from Kokugyo p. 58. Because Kujyaku is defined by a Kohaku pattern on top of a Matsuba Ogon, its pattern should be like Kohaku.) I've been trying to research similar fish and I agree the name Ki Shusui may not be of Japanese origin. However there has been some experimentation in Japan crossing Shusui with Hikarimono. The following is from the Q&A part of Kokugyo by Kodama p.15: Q. What happens if we cross Shusui with Hikarimono? A. It is a very good idea. Actually one breeder thought about it and crossed Shusui and Platinum. The new variety became known as Ginsui. Now, Ikenkubo in Koguriyama is famous as the breeder of Ginsui.

Mike do you ever get the chance togo by Ikenkubo's farm?
Thanks,
Mitch

[JasPR]

Mitch, be careful where you get your information from.

In the 1960s the doitsu was used extensively in the breeding experiments. There were shusui of every color and description. The real idea behind trying these fish as crosses was to add new blood and also fast growth and vigor to rather inbred populations. This same thing as being done with other food fish/carp with poor results. Indonesian carp , a local food carp etc all used to inject size and vigor in experimental breedings. The only enduring one however were the crosses with shusui which is traced back to the Austrian strain of scaleless carp gifted by the Germans to the Japanese earlier in the 20th century.
More new hybrids and varieties came out in the 1960s and 1970s than over the next 3 decades. This is because all the local expansion of types was accomplished. These days the 'new varieties' are just hybrids that ironically show us throw backs to the 1960s and 1970s in every spawn. In other words, everything old is new again!

[dizzyfish]

Thanks Jim,
But I'm not sure that answers the question of what a koi that looks like a yellow Shusui should be called. Do you agree with Ki Kujaku?
Mitch

[JasPR]

sorry, just trying to give you a broader perspective, my mistake.

To answer your question, doitsu kujaku and kikusui would be hariwake branch of ogon X shusui. These are all, by definition, metallic fish. The kujaku version would have to have black matsuba like TICKING on the dorsal scales and not black scales or clear scales. It is very difficult to tell true doitsu kujaku of any shade of orange or yellow from the hariwake/kikusui complex. The scales are the only area of identification and there are crossover individuals whose phenotype can be belie their breeding.

Once a colored shusui has no metallic sheen it is typically given a trade name for export sales and has little value in Japan ( a culled fish). These can be highly variable looks from white and red to blue and orange with shades of yellow, green and grey possible. There are many trade names for export over the years but the descriptive name however for plain yellow shusui is simply ki-shusui.

Hope this is more what you were looking for? JR

[koifishgirl]

Simple, Its a ki Shusui. I dont see what the confushion is?

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by koifishgirl Simple, Its a ki Shusui. I dont see what the confushion is?

No.......... IT IS NOT! You should read what JR has said again. It is a Ki-Shusui only if it has no metallic sheen. Mitch's Koi has a metallic sheen. It is a Doitsu Ki-Kujaku.

The scales on the back of this Koi are not solid black.

[dizzyfish]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR sorry, just trying to give you a broader perspective, my mistake. {snip, snip, snip} Hope this is more what you were looking for? JR

JR,
I appreciate the broader perspective to be sure, but yes the later explanation was more what I was asking for when I started the thread. So thank you for both responses.
Mitch

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR sorry, just trying to give you a broader perspective, my mistake. To answer your question, doitsu kujaku and kikusui would be hariwake branch of ogon X shusui. These are all, by definition, metallic fish. The kujaku version would have to have black matsuba like TICKING on the dorsal scales and not black scales or clear scales. Once a colored shusui has no metallic sheen it is typically given a trade name for export sales and has little value in Japan ( a culled fish).JR

Mitch,

Just because it comes from the ogon x shusui does not mean your Koi is a Ki-Shusui. Your Koi is metallic with the black matsuba dorsal scales.

It is a Ki-Kujaku. Shusui are not metallic. Now once, and if, your Koi loses its sheen, then you have a Ki-Shusui............

[koiczar]

Well, I guess we beat this topic to death!?