Choosing young fish

[carrie1964]

I seem to have a really hard time judging body conformation on young fish.Sometimes it`s obvious...a thick tail tube and nice frame or on a bad fish, a really thin body.
But more often than not...I just don`t see it I`m still learning.....All of my koi are younger that 4 years. It would help me so much to have some advice. I have several that I bought that are just super thin.
Does anybody have some good before pics of koi that ended up having good conformation?
Thanks!

[lildude]

I know some breeds of koi are naturally thin until they reach their mature form, and then they fill out. If I am not mistaken, Matsunosuke sanke does this. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Maybe you have male fish....? Just a thought.

In young fish, I believe you are supposed to look for tale tell signs of good growth and conformation.

For example. Look at the head's width, and then in your imagination, take the width starting at the shoulders you add it length to length and see how many "Head widths" it takes to fill span from the shoulders to the tail stop (odome). If it adds up to 3 lengths, it should have good conformation.

Then, for the entire length of the fish, take the "length" of the fish's head, and then do the same thing you did with the width, only this time, count the head itself. So you start from the tip of the head or you automatically count it as "1", and then keep adding more heads. Until you get 4 lengths down the the tail stop, the conformation should be ok.

I cant remember where I heard this from....
Another thing, I might have my information wrong. Please wait until it can be validated by a more knowledgeable member.

Thank you.
Have a great day.

[MikeM]

Carrie: Check the Nisei Koi Farm 'before and after' thread. Lots of examples.

[carrie1964]

Originally Posted by MikeM

Carrie: Check the Nisei Koi Farm 'before and after' thread. Lots of examples.

Thanks Mike
I have two of mine in that thread..I don`t know why this is so hard for me.
I just don`t have enough experience to see it yet......I guess I`m putting the cart before the horse. I guess after I`ve bought enough tosai and nisai I will start to "get it".
PATIENCE.... (not one of my virtues)

[dick benbow]

is like brick laying. The most difficult is the first row when everything has to square and line up. Once that's in place the subsequent rows come together a lot easier. I notice with my wife's croquetting that she'll get distracted and do something wrong then have to go all the way back and unravel it. So I quess it doesn't matter what hobby or job you select, it's a patient plodding sort that eventually becomes second nature.

[Russell Peters]

Originally Posted by dick benbow

is like brick laying. The most difficult is the first row when everything has to square and line up. Once that's in place the subsequent rows come together a lot easier. I notice with my wife's croquetting that she'll get distracted and do something wrong then have to go all the way back and unravel it. So I quess it doesn't matter what hobby or job you select, it's a patient plodding sort that eventually becomes second nature.

Dick is right, so the more you look at Koi the more you will learn. Attend as many Koi shows and events as you can. Seeing the Koi in person is always better.

[l113892]

Carrie-

There are ways to help skew the results. If you know you've selected a female, you have a much better shot at the body shape you want. Also, length factors into body shape so good growth will help you achieve the body shape you want. Pay attention to the length of the fish as it relates to the age of the fish. Large fish are not a 100 percent predictor of ultimate length but while in Japan I was selecting nisai at 18 inches of length. Great growth for 18 month old fish. It may sound like I'm picking on one dealer but if you look on Kodama's site, you will see many fish that have not reached the length one would hope for at the age they are being sold at. This should factor into the price of the fish.

[koiczar]

Mike

Very good point. As a matter of fact, I was just on Kodama's site for the first time in a very long while. I too noticed the same thing overall. About the only one's that had grown somewhat decently were the Yamamatsu fish. The Dainichi stuff must have been bulk raised in concrete ponds for export. I mean, 11-14" fish born in 2005 makes them ake-sansai right?!?! Not much growth potential there. So, Carrie, follow Mike's advice and choose carefully if selecting fish of 2 yrs old or less.

Mike

[aquitori]

The problem: Judging conformation on young fish.

a koi's body develops in different stages and the growth should some what match those certain stages. For example: a fish under 20" shouldnt have a hulking(big shoulders, thick ozutsu) body. It doesnt look too elegant. That body is best fit on a fish that is over 26" and up.. If you study magazines with koi show pics and there size classes you can see what I am talking about. A certain body must fit a certain size in a fish. I will post some examples later when I bust out the scanner.

[carolyn swanson]

Not everyone needs to be looking for fish that will grow jumbo. There is perhaps a larger need for fish in the 20-inch range. I think that it may be a mistake for most people with ponds to pass over a fish just because it hasn't grown. As long as the fish isn't misrepresented, please don't pass over these fish. And as for showing, it's much easier to haul the small ones around and it's fun to have a six-year-old young champ (believe me, I know).