Sanke or Showa

[evabug1]

To my untrained eye the first impression I got on koibooi and Nancy's pics is that they're both Sanke.

[JasPR]

Mike I was with you, nodding my head until you got to this----

" On occasion, I think sumi on the head of Sanke or Bekko is actually an enhancement, but our judges are not at that point.... yet. "

I was of the opinion several years back that the standards for sanke were beginning to not keep up with modern kohaku and sanke breeding. My mind was changed by a single fish that won the BKKS that year- a very nice sanke for that time period only it had a black diamond placed squarely in the center of it's skull! It was quite an accent piece and I thought I had finally started thinking outside the box when it came to the restrictive nature of standards. After all, part of judging is subjectivity and truely remarkable fish transcend the standards.
But as I watched an assault on standards by ambitious breeders and ethically challenged dealers over the 1990s, I soon realized why the standards were there. They act as brakes and perspective for season to season trends in the business end of the hobby. Truly, I have seen fish sold for ungodly amounts of money that couldn't compete in a koi show if their lives depended on it. These collector fish were just that, collector fish and no longer show fish.
And I can think of no better response to a dealer telling me that standards don't matter, patterns don't matter and I instead should concentrate on the beautiful fukurin skin this special fish possess, than---- " me thinks, the emperor has no clothes on?!" :0 )

It's true though, we are thru the looking glass in this area. Standards are flexible but they matter. And the breeders are keeping way too many sellable fish that are not show fish. The jumbo trend is responsible for some of the laxness. And the skin quality is responsible for some if it. In the far future we will not have to change the standards. Once the jumbo genes are spread around enough to be common and the skin is made uniform, the breeders will get down to focusing on pattern again, and logically the standards will once again be reached for. JR

[koibooi]

The question up front was a bit loaded because when I bought the Koi I asked the breeder who the parents were and what will all the Sanke voters say if I reveal that the parents were fully fledged Showa. Male 75cm and female 83cm. Is it therefore possible to get a Sanke out of a Showa breeding?

[MikeM]

Well, I didn't say "always", JR. ...Just on occasion.

Koiboii: What a nice surprise you have tossed in! Lots to say, but little time. I'll assume the source spoke correctly....

First, parentage is important. That is what the varieties are all about. The more refined varieties (genetically refined)are relatively pure in their offspring. But, even Kohaku linebred for many generations beget shiromuji and benigoi. Showa is the less refined of the gosanke varieties and more likely to throw 'pondgoi'. The special qualities of the original Showa were in the overall package of powerful presence, pattern and being tri-color. However, the sumi was sooty, not deep black; the Hi was yellowish; and the body often 'stubby'. Kohaku was bred into Showa to brighten the red pigment, improving the body along the way; and Sanke was bred into Showa to improve the black pigment. The early Showa could be accurately described as black fish with white and red patterning. Long ago now, that really changed. Showa remains a black-based koi, but the ground color is white with red and black patterning as in Sanke. But, it is a different patterning derived from the Utsuri genetic origin.

Which leads to the second point: I expect the parents were the result of heavy crossing of Sanke into Showa. There are many such offspring culled each year because they do not meet the goal for being Showa. Some get through the culling and are difficult to label because they are neither Sanke nor Showa, but simply a Sanshouku... a tricolor koi. With the enhanced quality of the modern Sanke and Showa in their genetic make-up, such koi can be beautiful creatures. However, in the genetic mixing they have lost the essence of what makes a Sanke or a Showa.

Third: The koi you posted has Sanke sumi. It is what I describe as chips of black laying over one another like confetti. It is what you find in Bekko... even those domestic Arkansas Bekko that hardly deserve pond space these days. In Showa, the sumi fills the scales like watercolor...it is more fluid, harkening back to the origin of Showa as a black-based koi. The Sanke sumi has the ability to be so thick that it is truly shiny lacquer black. Showa sumi retains a muted tone, so Sanke is bred in to improve the sumi. The best specimens of Showa will retain the essential nature of Showa, but have the thick lacquer sumi that makes a koi look like a paint-by-numbers oil painting. Your koi also has a body structure that fits Sanke and the Hi is Sanke-like. The parents may have been tricolor koi labeled as Showa by someone, but they passed on the genetics of Sanke.

Fourth: Too bad the sumi on the head is not better oriented to enhance the pattern.

Gotta go!... Lots for JR to chew on, too.

[JasPR]

Bababooi, the phenotype doesn't lie. The protype showa ( I'm not going to get into old style vs kindai for the moment) is a black based fish with a wrapped pattern emerging from the belly. This is the basic genetics of the variety.
The kindai showa is a cross in which breeders are injecting more white spreading genes and better color. The failures are in the genetic square that throws mixes.
The nature of the sumi here is clearly sanke regardless of it's positions on the body. The shape and type of sumi is sanke in the rear. If the oyagoi ( F2) are showa I'm confident that ( F1) have a cross in them. Do me a favor, please get a photo of this fish's eye so we can see the iris and eye structures.
To get to your question, Is it possible to get sanke from showa, I hope not! If so, we have breeders who are doing a poor job of culling. In the old days the breeders were pure and ruthless. If they were breeding for a type, everything was culled except that type. Space and time demanded it, as did the dream. Today, breeders can be quite wealthy. And if not weathy they must still keep up with those at the head of the pack. So everything that is sellable is held as the facilities are there to do that. As you pointed out, a 'selection from pond to all Japan' is housed in the big production facilities. This is a disturbing trend. And if you read Japanese Rinko, you might remember a land mark debate between the old time breeders and the young turkls of the time in which one generation recommended ruthless culling to maintain the world market and the other generation recommended mass sales and whole pond selling to large foreign dealers. The keeping of mixed phenotypes and their regular appearance in the west tells us who ultimately won that 10 year old debate. JR

[PapaBear]

We're right back to JR's original post. Obviously outbred to enhance Sumi, Beni, and Body, with a lovely if "indiscriminate" result. I makes you wonder if the day may come when "Kindai" is set apart as a separate class to allow Koi like this and Nancy's friends to compete without sifting through the gray area of where to bench them.

[JasPR]

That's an interesting thought Larry- an evolution of a separate class for kindai as a white based showa and a class for the original showa, a black based fish of pure lineage. But then again, we have now rolled up white based goshiki with black based goshiki in one class. I saw this as unfortunate as goshiki is kawari. But the white based fish is SO gosanke influenced that it really is a different fish?
I guess a lot of this comes down to practical limits of the koi show itself. Number of tanks, personnel needed, time allowance to judge etc. The proliferation of divisions can easily outstrip the energy of show volunteers!

And here is a curve ball- the ZNA is breaking shusui away from asagi to form it's own class. And except for scale type, they ARE the same fish! JR