Koi "Pellets", Nutrition and Balanced diet

[kevin]

Guys

Whilst on this subject, do any dealers/hobbyists on here know precisely whats in the pellet they use/sell, ie percentage of ingredients, type and origin etc.

I endeavoured to ask certain suppliers here in the UK to no avail and whilst ingredients are usually listed on the packaging, thats not the complete story!!

Regards

Kevin

[bekko]

From the manufacturer's perspective, if you think you have a good formulation you would be a fool to tell the whole world. There is an industrial espionage sort of reverse-engineering procedure where pellets are picked apart under a microscope and the various ingredients separated speck-by-microscopic-speck. Obviously, it is very expensive to have this done and the results are not precise.

-steve

[dick benbow]

My Marine worms mention was due to the fact that I have been feeding EA one food. There was no doubt my koi REALLY liked it, and that I could see marked improvement in white on some individuals. I'm glad Bill at Mystic koi
talked me into trying it. I have some ideas I'll try next year as part of a show preparation practice.

Was interesting to see in your ingredients seaweed, which I also use in liquid form to nourish my bonsai.

I think in today's diets for humans or their pets, there is a real need to get trace minerals added.

[kevin]

Steve

Fair point and is the excuse I have been given, but I also wonder if its not to cover the fact that there is:-

A. Very little fishmeal

B. Too much wheatflour(upto 70 percent in some cases I believe)

C. What small amounts of quality/ expensive ingredients there are-its all well and good listing say Brewers Yeast but that could amount to 1oz per tonne!!!

So, point I am making is that here in the UK some food can cost up to £15 per kilo........absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

Regards

Kev

[MikeM]

Ingredients are to be listed in order of quantity. So, if fishmeal is first, there should be more of it than any other single ingredient.

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Ingredients are to be listed in order of quantity. So, if fishmeal is first, there should be more of it than any other single ingredient.

That's what I've always been told, including by the reps from Hikari/Japan, Dainichi food and OSI.

Mike

[bekko]

Quote: some food can cost up to £15 per kilo........absolutely ridiculous in my opinion.

I agree and that is why I buy inexpensive industrial food and supplement with other stuff.

We have a saltwater pond that becomes covered with Enteromorpha and Ulva (green seaweeds). The koi love it. A readily available source of seaweed are the sheets of nori sold for wrapping sushi. Depending on where you live, you may also be able to find dry wakame or kombu which is dry kelp used for making soup.

There are commercial sources of frozen marine bloodworms. These are large polychaete worms about 20-30 cm and are not the same as the little red midge fly larvae - although both are excellent nutrition. They used to sell the big marine bloodworms only for bait but now most of the production goes to shrimp hatcheries where they are used to help induce spawning in the breeder shrimp. Maine Bait is a big supplier in the US and Seabait is the major supplier in Europe. Last time I checked, the price was about $8 US/kg. That would be about $25 US/kg on a dry weight basis.

-steve

[kevin]

Guys

And thats just it, I dont think the ingredients are incorporated as you and I thought, so surely amongst the forum users we have a dealer or manufacturer willing to tell us within reason whats in the food in more detail than is on the packet!!!!Should not have anything to hide!!! And lets hope I am proven wrong?

Regards

Kevin

[JasPR]

No Mike is correct, it has to be listed according to percentage with the bulk percentage first and then descending from there.
And I think it needs to be said, quality ingredients are fine, but at the end of the day, it is the 'consumers' ability to digest and assimilate that is important. As is the combination of dietary mix. As an example, there isn't anything much higher in protein and fatty acids than beef. But koi have no access to that protein so it would pass thru undigested. In another example, the essential amino acids needed are gotten from diet, but koi can make other amino acids- but first they must have the building blocks to do that.

Balanced diet from pellets is an insurance policy while freshfoods give fresh ingredient and make for fun for the owner to make- that nurturing thing we all like to do.
I don't see koi food makers as rip offs. And I'm a pretty cynical guy most of the time! They provide a product that fills a need and it's up to the consumer to do a little homework to sort out the over priced and under nutritious foods. It would be a big mistake to allow or encourage koi hobbyists to make only their own food. I remember when that caught on here and people were only feeding fresh frozen meat parts to their bones. It was all the rage for a while. Then dogs started getting sick as the they are more than carnivores and need other ingredients. Those ingredients were taken for granted when feeding kebble.
The orginal value of the first pelleted koi foods was they contained all the essentials and were digestible and absorbable. And it's true that some manufacturese started to cheapen ingredients in the pursuit of profit. But others started to move to excess protein for marketing purposes. This was even more dangerous as koi live in closed systems and what the fish could not absorb was being dumped into the water column. So younger guys, on a quest to make their fish big at all costs, would routinely trash their pond environment and blame their filters.
Japanese farmers will use pellets as low as 16-18% protein. It is hard to find a pet trade pellet that low in protein. In recent times, the hobbyist view has been- all protein, no carbs and marginal fatty acids. The image is that all carbs are filler and non -digestible ( not true) and that protein is all digested to amino acids and that is all that is needed. This works for growing food carp to 2 pounds for slaughter. It is not wise for long term charges. A balanced diet, varied by season in mix and amount, is more enlightened.

Personally, I use homemade recepes in summer and early fall for fresh protein, vitamin and mineral considerations. Where pellets may be old, homemade recepes are mostly moisture content. I just think there is a place for both- pellets for full coverage of a balanced diet and homemade foods for freshness ( fresh forms of all amino acids and fatty chains) and vitamins

[KoiCop]

Good post, Jim. Not everyone needs to be a zealot.

At the end of the day, feeding a balanced mix of quality pellets with reasonable protein levels, supplemented with fresh fruit, veggies and greens, will get the job done quite nicely, thank you very much.