Koi "Pellets", Nutrition and Balanced diet

[Auntiesue]

I love these threads, but always have trouble getting out of them what I really need to know. Can someone PLEASE just tell me what ingrediants I should be looking for in a good balanced pellet? No dancing around product names, just spell it out!! I understand protein levels, I understand spring vs summer foods, I understand amino acids, but pulling that all together is still such a mystery. Some foods bring up the whites, some do not.

Where's the happy face that butts its head agains the wall? ROTF!!

I've spent years understanding how to build a proper pond. Now I'm 60+++, running out of time....LOL

[bekko]

Impossible question Sue. It is not just the ingredients, but the proportions of each ingredient that makes the overall amino acid profile. You want the amino acid profile to provide the fish with all the lego blocks it needs for growth, repair and metabolism, but with no extra lego blocks left over. You would not want to feed exclusively with pellets made with 95% fish meal, 95% silk worm pupae or 95% wheat flour.

With that said, and as a general rule, you would like to see as many ingredients as possible from aquatic sources (fish meal, krill meal, seaweed meal, etc.) plus things like silk worm pupae. These are generally more expensive than ingredients from other terrestrial sources (wheat, soy, hydrolyzed feather meal, etc.). If the pellet is expensive, you should expect to see expensive ingredients.

Also, the list of ingredients (even if it included percentages) cannot tell the whole story. There are many forms and grades of fish meal, fish oil, soy, wheat, etc. Some are de-fatted, some solvent extracted, some include hulls or bran, etc. There will be varying standards for rancidity, aflatoxin, etc.

At some point you just have put your trust in the expertise and reputation of the feed manufacturer and trust the results you see with your own eyes.

And finally, for most folks, there are financial limits as well. Even if there were a guaranteed relationship between feed price and feed quality (which there isn't), at what point would the additional feed expense not be justified by the small incremental improvement in koi quality?

-steve

[PapaBear]

A seasonal dietary profile of wild carp would be very instructive as an adjunct to JR and SteveH's observations. Carp life cycles and seasonal requirements are the result of native habitat and food availability. They are ideally a combination of "what they eat" and "when they eat it" according to seasonal need and availability.
We all know that in the wild they will graze on aquatic plants of various types, shellfish, mollusks, snails, worms, small fish, etc..., but not all of these are available on a year 'round basis or in the same proportion at all seasons. Getting a good handle on that kind of info could shed a lot of light on what is truly most seasonally suitable as opposed to what we might "assume" to be so.
The grains we use as a major part of the pellet staple really are the "wildcard" ingredient in my mind. All of the aquatic feeds and most of the vegetable matter we look for are routinely eaten by carp au'natural, raw and unprocessed. The grains we add to the mix are least likely to be part of a Carp's normal diet, and they must be glutenized, etc... for their proteins and starches to be readily digestible. Proportions and proper processing are an important part of the dietary equation.

[Auntiesue]

Steve and Larry, thank you so much for this information. The more we discuss this the better understood it is for me. I fell like I'm in "never never land" when it comes to proper feeds for my koi. I rely on recommendations from others that have had good results with what they are feeding, but that is not the whole story either. I know water quality plays a big role as well.

I read the labels of evey food I feed, but you are right Steve, that is not the whole story. I look for gluten as well because long ago Steve mentioned that this was important if grains are included in a prepared pellet. I don't see very much of that listed on any foods I've tried except one that is made from Mircrolift. There are likely others, but I have not yet seen those.

Presently I feed a wide variety (3) of pelleted foods plus a good selection of raw fruits and veggies (and a little tofu (sp) as well).

Please continue......as I attempt to understand this!!

[B.Scott]

Quote: Originally Posted by bekko Impossible question Sue. It is not just the ingredients, but the proportions of each ingredient that makes the overall amino acid profile. You want the amino acid profile to provide the fish with all the lego blocks it needs for growth, repair and metabolism, but with no extra lego blocks left over ...

VERY well put Steve though I might ad that the composition will also vary accrding the season and temperature.

Sue, It is useless to read the labels on almost all koifood as they generally only tell the things THEY want you know and not the things YOU want to know. I have one brand that actually tells what is truly in it. If you have one that is as thorough I'd love to see it especially with regards to the carbohydrate content.




B.Scott

[Auntiesue]

Quote: Originally Posted by B.Scott VERY well put Steve though I might ad that the composition will also vary accrding the season and temperature. Sue, It is useless to read the labels on almost all koifood as they generally only tell the things THEY want you know and not the things YOU want to know. I have one brand that actually tells what is truly in it. If you have one that is as thorough I'd love to see it especially with regards to the carbohydrate content. B.Scott

Well no wonder this subject drives most of us crazy!! Can't find out what the heck is in these foods!! Scott, you say you can't get this food anymore? Is it just not exported? I'm beginning to think these mfgs try to stay more to the "generic" listings because what they mill each week may change depending on what sources are available at what prices .... whatever is cheaper that week that falls within the profile is what goes into the mix. If they listed everything in detail they would be changing the labels all the time. Not very efficent or cost effective.

OK, so if my questions are hard or imposible to answer, can those that have studied this topic disclose what they feed their fish and why, being careful not to trash other foods on the market of course? I guess all we can do is try to read labels, try to choose the best we can afford, rely on those that make recommendations and observe our own fish.

Sue

[B.Scott]

Sue this is the ONLY stuff I will use or I make it myself. At this point this stuff is not available outside Europe and the UK unless you are willing to order at least 1/2 a tonne. I think that is more than most of us need.

This is the same stuff Lee Arondfield is crazy about and I feed very fortunate that I am able to buy it. I would be truly at a loss without it.

I don't have quite the energy to go into the whole rant at this point but you can read more in this thread from last summer on another board

Koi Quest :: View topic - Probites tm summer premium advanced koi nutrition

As to what they mill when... No I believe it is pretty consistent as to what goes in. That said I Have some friends who have had koi food milled and it is in fact dirt cheap. The cost-price of a kilo of the average koi food is just a couple of dollars. The pro-bites is a different story altogether and the profit margin is actually quite low because the quality is so high. In the end it still has to be affordable for the client. That's what happens when you don't use hydrolyzed feathers as a protein source.

B.Scott

[Auntiesue]

Hmm, I have a great relationship with a local koi dealer........Hmmm, I wonder!!!

[bekko]

Quote: can those that have studied this topic disclose what they feed their fish and why

I feed a combination of Silver Cup trout food (50-cents per pound) and alfalfa pellets (rabbit pellets, 25-cents per pound). About two-thirds trout and one-third alfalfa. The fingerlings get Rangen Shrimp Crumbles (75-cents per pound) and rabbit pellets. I have been using the trout food for about 10 years. I used to supplement with seaweed and string algae, and still do on occasion. But there is never enough time and rabbit pellets are much easier. The trout/rabbit combination has about 32% protein and 7% fat. The koi are healthy and do not have a propensity to develop pot-belly or fatty liver. The goldfish do not develop swim bladder problems.

There have been occasions when I developed a guilt-trip after reading these boards and would go out and buy a bag of real koi food or real goldfish food. I cannot tell the difference in the fish and always revert back to my old ways. I use about 100 pounds of feed per month and would have to give up most of the fish if the feed cost was $5 to $10 per pound.

-steve

[Steve Nguyen]

Tonio, you are a lucky man!

Although I would love to feed my koi with freshly man foods. I think it's next to nature foods in the wild but my wife and kids would have a problem if I spend time prepare this kind of foods for my my koi. I meant I already spent a bundle of time for the koi. Anymore time than what I already done will land me into the dog house.

Steve

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori I made my batch of paste the other night: 1 1/2 pounds (steamed mashed) of Japanese Sweet Potato 1 egg 1 1/2 tablespoons of Chitinal (Izeki from Eastern) 1 tablespoon of Super Clean C (Izeki from Eastern) 1/2 teaspoon of Manda Nishiki (from Champ or Eastern) 2 tablespoons of Dehydrated Milk 2 tablespoons of Natural Honey 1/4 (small)bag of Bonito Shavings Pako (Japanese bread crumbs) to bind. This is a twice a week feeding with Sweet Potato as the staple. Will cut of the paste in another 2 weeks and continue in early spring.