Koi "Pellets", Nutrition and Balanced diet

[kevin]

Guys

Am pleased this thread providing some thought provoking ideas on food and wonder if anyone on here familiar with my paste ingredients and care to comment.

I know B.Scott is not entirely in favour of some of them, I have corresponded with him before on another thread, maybe Steve or someone could comment as right now I believe my paste for summer use is as good as I can prepare and as said previously, I am not a chemist or have any qualifications in this regard, but by applying some thought and common sense believe the supplement to be a necessary one in the absense of knowing whats precisely in pellets!!!

Regards

Kevin

[bekko]

You need to look up the protein content and amino acid profile of each of your ingredients. The amino acids are expressed as percent-of-protein. For each ingredient, multiply the percent-of-protein for each amino acid, times the percent total protein content of that ingredient, times the percent of that ingredient in the formulation. Repeat for the other ingredients. Then, sum the values for each of the important amino acids. You will end up with the overall percent-of-protein for each of the important amino acids. It is easiest to do this on a spread sheet - with amino acids along one axis and feed ingredients along the other axis.

Once you have the amino acid profile for your formulation, compare the results to the recommended amino acid profile. As far as I know, the only recommended amino acid profile in the public domain is for food-fish common carp. That recommendation, along with the literature citation can be found here: http://www.raingarden.us/bloodworms_legos.pdf

If you are serious about this, you would then do the same for fatty acids.

I'm not a nutritionist, but glancing at your formulation and without doing any calculations, it looks very rich. It is too rich for my taste, but to each his own. The gross protein will be very high and fat may be high as well. Also, there is no vitamin and mineral package. You can buy a vitamin and mineral pre-mix which will make sure the fish get all the micro-nutrients and antioxidants they need. I would dilute the formulation 20-50% (or whatever it takes) with a high-fiber, low-GSI ingredient. Perhaps seaweed meal or alfalfa.

-steve

[kevin]

Steve

Thanks very much for your advise, will do this and post accordingly.

My original thoughts were protein content of approx 43 percent, a vitamin and mineral supplement is added and detailed on the website I mentioned earlier at 5 grams per dry powder per kilo.

I'll be back!!!!

Regards

Kevin

[JasPR]

You are what you eat , the proof is in the tasting/pudding and the devil is in the details----

Good paper Steve. But are you looking at the
problem' correctly? The carp needs 23 essential acids but it makes the rest. And it can make the rest based on diet and it's own metabolic rate at the time. I said this twice before but it never seems to cause any change in thinking on this thread? Either it is too simplistic or too complicated for consideration I guess? Let me try again- You are NOT what you eat ( old saying aside) , you are what you Assimilate! And koi can not assimilate certain proteins at certain times of the year. Nor do they want to.
I recall the Yagengi brothers saying they like to use 16- 23% protein in their foods depending on age and pond. 16%. I have been to Yagengi's farm at least 20 times. The fish are always robust and lusterous. The proof is in the pudding and not in the theory. And the devil is in the details, koi are four season fish.

[kevin]

Jaspr,

You're not wrong when it comes to Yagenji. Was there for my first time in Japan this harvest and my first purchase was from them.

Thanks for your thoughts, I posted in order to learn on here which I am doing.

Regards,


Kevin

[PapaBear]

The info on Yagenji is enlightening to say the least. I've been fortunate enough to see several of their Koi at the OKC show these past few years, and to say they are impressive is a huge understatement. A credit to the breeder and owners alike.

[Auntiesue]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR You are what you eat , the proof is in the tasting/pudding and the devil is in the details---- Good paper Steve. But are you looking at the problem' correctly? The carp needs 23 essential acids but it makes the rest. And it can make the rest based on diet and it's own metabolic rate at the time. I said this twice before but it never seems to cause any change in thinking on this thread? Either it is too simplistic or too complicated for consideration I guess? Let me try again- You are NOT what you eat ( old saying aside) , you are what you Assimilate! And koi can not assimilate certain proteins at certain times of the year. Nor do they want to. I recall the Yagengi brothers saying they like to use 16- 23% protein in their foods depending on age and pond. 16%. I have been to Yagengi's farm at least 20 times. The fish are always robust and lusterous. The proof is in the pudding and not in the theory. And the devil is in the details, koi are four season fish.

JR, while the breeders in Japan may feed a lower protein diet than we tend to feed, is it possible that additional proteins are eaten by the fish while in a more natural setting - the mud pond? We so often hear that a protein level of around 30++% is good for a pelleted food. Unfortunately, I think, in the foods we often feed, if the protein is lower the pellet has more fillers. Is my thinking correct here?

[JasPR]

Hi Sue, your point is well taken. Depending on setting ( less and less breeders use wild field ponds/reserviors and have moved towards earthen dams over the past the decades, as a general statement) and age of the fish ( stocking level), the live component of protein is there. But when we talk about percentages, of course, we are talking about a dietary mix. So for the animal plankton, dead insects, the hatch and the worms and such that are adding to the animal protein mix we must also give some weighting to the dead algae, green water, mulm, surface carbohydrates ( from DOCs) and massive amounts of bacteria that is digested with the mud that passes thru the fish. I don't think anyone can tell you what the ultimate result of that dietary mix that browsing activity results in, except to say that the koi work at it, most of their waking hours. Best, JR

[Auntiesue]

JR....Some time ago I also read sometihng about higher protein levels being very important to the skin thickness and luster, not to mention bone structure. How true is this? I'm reading now that higher levels of protein seems to dull the skin. Maybe it's the type/quality of proteins being offered?????? Is animal or plant protein more important OR are they equally important? I've personally felt that plant proteins might be a bit more favorable, but not sure about that either.

I'm talking about summer feeding primarily in this situation.

[JasPR]

Well, I think the difficulty/confusion about general statements is that they are true GENERALLY but distorted in the broader picture.

Certainly protein is the building block of life. It is most important. But what age and under what conditions is the bigger picture view.

Young koi or carp are eating machines, need protein and are attracted to moving prey. They inhabit the shallows where water is warmer in the summer and food is plentiful. They live among marginal plants or dash to the safety of deeper water when danger appears. They also have short guts which means they must digest food quickly and that foos must be very digestible. Digestiblity involves both food type AND water conditions as koi are cold blooded.
Adult koi have changed compared to young. They have a long gut capable of digesting many types of good. They have a hugh developed swim bladder and they have sensitive 'smelling organs/cells' that help them identify and taste food. And they have developed skin. Skin that stores eaten material. Adult koi are all about growth and storage whereas baby koi are all about growth.
JR