The differences between a water garden and a koi pond.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori When Joel throws a $3000 fish in that pond and it remains the same condition or better in a year he can have my dollar...

Like that is going to happen.

[JasPR]

I think the group has zeroed in on all the weaknesses of this pond instantly. First it is not 6500 gallons of water in the pond. 9 X 12 X 3 ( average depth) X 7.5 = 2430 gallons ( plus water fall) . If you have a 4000 gallon filter, I stand corrected.
Joel, You said " It CAN be done". And I honestly believe you believe that. But this is a holding compound for koi at best. And a slow death at worst. As someone else pointed out, you will not be able to improve or maintain quality koi in such a setting. The system will simply work against you over time. But don't be discouraged, you will like the rest of us, begin adding on equipment to improve this pond. And it will not be until a few years of struggling and tweaking that you will realize the innocent state of your comments today.
You've done some good things here Joel, but fundamentally the system is flawed and that will wear you and the koi down over time. In the short run you can compensate by being very proactive and involve yourself in some fairly intense hands on labor. But Rocket scientists and large Vets have all tried, in very creative and clever ways, to keep up with the deteriorating time line with only minimal results. In the end, this is a water feature. It adds a lot to the look of your yard and the waterfall is neat! But I'd consider another species? Maybe a wild life pond or a pond of native species like pumkin seed sunnys or bass. Or maybe even trout if the water doesn't get too warm? If you want color, I'd suggest red/orange.red&white and calico comets. They are hardy, not too dirty and can grow large in the right setting. They would do fine in that pond. Maybe some marginal plants like iris? But please do not try anything beyond a two year old pond grade color carp. If you buy a show variety koi of any quality, you will be just throwing your money away. Best of luck, JR

[Joel Acker]

I knew I would most likely get a negative response from people kichi people that is. As far as the size goes I bet from the pictures that you couldnt tell my stream bed is 5' wide and 35' foot long. So how by a picture can you tell the size when it has been reduced to upload. For the 7 stage system question the bog was spec'd for three filter boxes we applied a total of 7 for the water to filter through. I have seen some elaborite filter systems like the one at my friends house Dick Benbow "The Koi Coach" and tried to take filtration and health to a better level for this type of pond. Although he tried to detour me from it a little Dick knows what I like as he has helped me along the way from my very first pond when I had goldfish. Having koi is an every day learning experience and I know I will always learn what is good and bad in my environment and will fix my issues. I am not supposed to have an issue with settlement but this is not a perfect world and I know its in the cards I could have issues. My koi and the health of them are important so if there is an issue of toxin settlement I can easily remove the bottom rock and have an awsome pond to enjoy and not just a box with some liner in it or some concrete with a couple stones around the border. but thats just me. By the way a meter was used that a plumber friend of mine has to get water volume accuracy. This pond is pretty new only 4 mos. and currently I have 6, 12 to 18" koi in the pond I had to take out my GR Chagoi and my Platnum and put them in QT due to a couple scrapes. I guess I could go on and try and justify my pond and my fish health but what is the point as I had posted my pond to inform people that I have a koi pond and water garden it is not full of plants and I can enjoy both sides of the fence. So why dont you people that are against my type of pond and pre judge a person on how they just stick the fish in and cant see them or care about health of the fish in my type of pond help those kind of koi keepers in their trials and tribulations. Most of all try and keep an open mind as not all people think like you and lets remember that we are in this for our love of fish. Thanks and have a good day.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Joel Acker I have managed to apply a pond in my yard that contains a natural look ( and yes it has a rock base) as alot of koi kichi people do not like. before I go on let us remember our koi are being raised in mud ponds before you introduce them to any style of pond. I enjoy both natural surroundings and my koi and koi health is important to me. We made a 6,500 gal. pond with a first shelf of 24 inches and the second at 4 ft. our filter system is an upflow bog wich contains a seven stage filter system. Between the few plants, stream and bog system our fish are very healthy and we can enjoy all aspects of our pond and koi. It can be done

Perhaps Mike Garcia will chime in on this thread, This pond type looks to be right up his alley of expertise.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Joel Acker I knew I would most likely get a negative response from people kichi people that is. As far as the size goes I bet from the pictures that you couldnt tell my stream bed is 5' wide and 35' foot long. So how by a picture can you tell the size when it has been reduced to upload. For the 7 stage system question the bog was spec'd for three filter boxes we applied a total of 7 for the water to filter through. I have seen some elaborite filter systems like the one at my friends house Dick Benbow "The Koi Coach" and tried to take filtration and health to a better level for this type of pond. Although he tried to detour me from it a little Dick knows what I like as he has helped me along the way from my very first pond when I had goldfish. Having koi is an every day learning experience and I know I will always learn what is good and bad in my environment and will fix my issues. I am not supposed to have an issue with settlement but this is not a perfect world and I know its in the cards I could have issues. My koi and the health of them are important so if there is an issue of toxin settlement I can easily remove the bottom rock and have an awsome pond to enjoy and not just a box with some liner in it or some concrete with a couple stones around the border. but thats just me. By the way a meter was used that a plumber friend of mine has to get water volume accuracy. This pond is pretty new only 4 mos. and currently I have 6, 12 to 18" koi in the pond I had to take out my GR Chagoi and my Platnum and put them in QT due to a couple scrapes. I guess I could go on and try and justify my pond and my fish health but what is the point as I had posted my pond to inform people that I have a koi pond and water garden it is not full of plants and I can enjoy both sides of the fence. So why dont you people that are against my type of pond and pre judge a person on how they just stick the fish in and cant see them or care about health of the fish in my type of pond help those kind of koi keepers in their trials and tribulations. Most of all try and keep an open mind as not all people think like you and lets remember that we are in this for our love of fish. Thanks and have a good day.

Joel, none of us are trying to pick on you. We have all been there and have done what you are doing. Long term, it will not work and to think so is a mistake. There is no way that you can keep the rocks clean enough to avoid problems. You yourself have just said that you have two Koi that were removed because of scrapes from the rocks. This could happen to all of your Koi and it will provide an entry point, inside your koi, for pathogens. They will get sick.

Do you have bottom drains of TPR's?

[Russell Peters]

I am also assuming that your bog is at the top of the waterfall and is about 3000 gallons.

[JasPR]

Russ is right, we are NOT trying to pick on you Joel. And it is very very hard not to anger someone and hurt their feelings when critiquing their ponds. But it is the truth Joel and it is meant to fast track you as the problems arise.
What you are preceiving to be elitist attitude or mean spirited commentary is really the voice of experience giving you the benefit of mistakes made in the past by all of us.
And you should know that just because of absense of plants, your water feature does not become a koi pond. I think it's great that you have excess capacity in your bog area. That will help with stocking issues and create a neat illusion that your fish are over stocked when in fact the water volume is greater than it appears. But the koi pond is first and foremost about organic waste management. And that is your water-loo. If you had stuck with your goldfish/comets, the prospects would have been brighter as they are thin bodied and physically smaller and they are also much more resistant to aeromonas infections. That pond would be a paradise for them. Instead you are taking on a challenge of keeping larger, faster growing and more demanding species on in a progressively organic richening environment.

So this is NOT an 'Us against them' kinda thing Joel. It is a learning curve. And we are trying to help you have a better hobby experience. If you do try and remove the rocks at some point, do also remove the bogs and try and create a seven stage system of settlement ( with flushing) and extensive open form media ( Jmat or matala or plastic) so that the organic problems are dealt with efficiently. Keep the faith and know that very few of us did it right in the beginning. But we didn't quit or get defensive, we took the advise of those further along the learning curve and who enjoy a reasonably trouble free hobby today as a result.
When some of us came on the message boards a good ten plus years ago now, the mindset was to be a water gardener keeping koi and dealing with all the diseases that were so common then. Today, there isn't as much chatter about the diseases as a main focus of the hobby. Why is that? I'd like to think that the spheres of influence in the hobby have had a positive effect as more and more water gardeners changed their ponds and built new ponds that made the focus on koi disease as a hobby kinda obsolete?

JR

[aquitori]

I guess we are to "Koi Kichi" if we speak the truth. I have seen many many R&G ponds fail in the husbandry of Nishikigoi. Dont get me wrong Joel your pond looks cool aesthetically, but on the full functionality of a true Koi pond we as Koi Kichi people see the faults. Looks good now in a couple of months when leaves, dust or whatever falls in and dies will cause problems.

To each is his own, but please dont call your pond a "koi" pond. I makes me sick to stomach when people pass their R&G ponds as a "KOI" pond. JMHO...

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Joel Acker I knew I would most likely get a negative response from people kichi people that is. As far as the size goes I bet from the pictures that you couldnt tell my stream bed is 5' wide and 35' foot long. So how by a picture can you tell the size when it has been reduced to upload. For the 7 stage system question the bog was spec'd for three filter boxes we applied a total of 7 for the water to filter through. I have seen some elaborite filter systems like the one at my friends house Dick Benbow "The Koi Coach" and tried to take filtration and health to a better level for this type of pond. Although he tried to detour me from it a little Dick knows what I like as he has helped me along the way from my very first pond when I had goldfish. Having koi is an every day learning experience and I know I will always learn what is good and bad in my environment and will fix my issues. I am not supposed to have an issue with settlement but this is not a perfect world and I know its in the cards I could have issues. My koi and the health of them are important so if there is an issue of toxin settlement I can easily remove the bottom rock and have an awsome pond to enjoy and not just a box with some liner in it or some concrete with a couple stones around the border. but thats just me. By the way a meter was used that a plumber friend of mine has to get water volume accuracy. This pond is pretty new only 4 mos. and currently I have 6, 12 to 18" koi in the pond I had to take out my GR Chagoi and my Platnum and put them in QT due to a couple scrapes. I guess I could go on and try and justify my pond and my fish health but what is the point as I had posted my pond to inform people that I have a koi pond and water garden it is not full of plants and I can enjoy both sides of the fence. So why dont you people that are against my type of pond and pre judge a person on how they just stick the fish in and cant see them or care about health of the fish in my type of pond help those kind of koi keepers in their trials and tribulations. Most of all try and keep an open mind as not all people think like you and lets remember that we are in this for our love of fish. Thanks and have a good day.

Joel, I'll take you at yo9ur word that the pond is 6000+ gallons. Let's go back to the comparison of a mud pond and a "natural" R&G style pond for a bit. The big difference with a mud pond (such as a Japanese breeders) is not only the duration and annual preperation that Russel so rightly pointed out, but it also has to do with the stocking densities. Stocking densities and how wastes are handled go hand in hand. In a mud pond, mother nature delas with such thorugh nitrification and EXTREME dilution which provides for extremely low ambient nutrient levels in the water. Even with this dilution rate and low stocking densities, the koi get and have parasites, parasite which must be treated for immediately upon removal from the mud pond every fall. Parasite thrive in nature but in our backyard recirculating systems must be reduced to levels such that our stocking densities and ambient nutrient levels do not cause parasites at epedemic proportions. Simpy put, R&G ponds cannot provide that environment over a period of time. With 1 mature koi in a pond suchg as yours, you have exceeded the stocking rates of a breeder's mud pond by 50 to 100X. With the lack of (or extremely low rate) of solids removal a R&G bottomed pond is doomed (sorry).

You didn't mention the turnover rate but let's do a little comparison here. Solids in a R&G pond will settle and fill the voids over time within the gravel base, left to deteriorate and adversely effect water quality at an increasing rate with time. A modern koi pond will sweep the bottom and remove those same solids to settlement for easy removal. Now, let's make an assumption here to make a point. Let's say we have 2 identical ponds, one without R&G and with a bottom drain and settlement system which is followed by bio filtration and the other with the typical "biofalls," skimmer (with minimal mechanical filtering capabilities) and an R&G bottom. Everyone got the picture(s) in their heads? Now, let's say that 60% of the solids fall from suspension to the floor of both ponds (a reasonable level, perhaps on the conservative side). In the R&G pond, these solids fill the gravel based voids and deteriorate over time adversely affecting water quality at an increasing rate. In a modern koi pond where the currents sweep the settled solids to the bottom drain, these solids are carried away to a settlement system to be easily flushed away (removed) from the system periodically (ussually once a week). Now, which provides for a better environment for water quality and thus our koi? I think that choice is obvious?

Now, let's go even a step further, shall we? Let's say that the settlement chamber is not dumped for 1 year. Now after a year, which pond has better water quality in the pond itself? The less knowledgeable may make the "leap" to say that both are equal? However, the solids in settlement that are deteriorating are still having the nutrient base handled by the bio filter immediately following the sump and thus the water quality in the modern koi pond is still better than the R&G pond that the same deterioration within the R&G bottom is directly and adversely affecting the pond's water quality and Koi's environment.

Keep in mind that is but an example and I would NEVER advocate not cleaning a settlement chamber for a year since the environemnt within it would still be highly conducive to parasitic and bacteia activity.

Joel, don't take any of the comment made (by myself or others) personally. Folks here are simply attempting to feed you some knowledge/ If your are happy with your R&G pond, hey....that is all that matters. But please do not promote such as a beneficial environment for koi (especially in comparison to better design methodologies.)...that is when folks can get a tad bit testi.

Edit: It would be interesting to see what the water volume is that is "trapped" within the gravel or an R&G pond. It would have to be metered until the point where the water rises above the R&G. This volume should then be removed from the total volume since it is uncirculated and eventuallt stagnent. Also, in the typical R&G style pond, the remaining volume is not "mixed" sufficiently to utilize our conventional thoughts on turnover either.

Steve

[KoiCop]

Joel . . .

No one asked you to come to Koi Bito, a forum for serious koi hobbyists, and shove your nice little starter pond in our collective faces as 'proof' of anything. But since you have, here are a few things you need to know.

In the first place, you haven't been in the hobby long enough to teach us anything.

In the second place, your starter pond hasn't been running long enough to 'prove' anything.

You're obviously a very nice guy who's very proud of your pond and very much in love with your fish. But when it comes to science and Mother Nature, that won't save your pond from crashing and burning. We've been there and we've done that.

So please: Listen to the voices of experience. Your 'experiment' has been tried many, many times in the history of ponding. The results are predictable. Failure.

So either learn from the lessons of history or be doomed to repeat them.

Best wishes,