Some help please...cold water deaths!!!

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters I was thinking sleeping sickness, it is a virus.

I've never dealt with that one before..I will research it.
I have no salt in my pond now...so, that's not an issue. I salted in spring...but after a full season and many water changes, it's out now.
I read that article by REC. I'm really thinking it was just a low temperature..with seasonal fluctuations. Fall had been pretty warm..and it had gotten cold very suddenly. My pond is clean enough to eat off the bottom..and I cleaned out the filters before shutting down. I also did a 2ppm treatment of PP at 60deg. Things should be spotless!!! I have no trees over the pond..so leaves were minimal!!
Gotta just be the cold!!

[schildkoi]

I didn't mean to be "cold" (pun intended) with my previous comment. Although, Extrene cold temps will take their toll on koi, it is ussually over a longer period. Although the colder temps no doubt exacerbated things, their is also a very good chance that there are other contributing issues.

Steve

[Brutuscz]

I've been trying to read threads and articles everywhere. I am really starting to believe it was simply the cold. The 2 air stones at the bottom were pretty heavy duty. The water looks like it's at a boil. Maybe this made the bottom too cold. I have moved them to the surface...so, I should know soon. I have read of people having this problem if they leave the waterfall running. I think it's essentially the same thing. Super-cooling. I appreciate all the help..just angry I lost those two!!!!

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz I've been trying to read threads and articles everywhere. I am really starting to believe it was simply the cold. The 2 air stones at the bottom were pretty heavy duty. The water looks like it's at a boil. Maybe this made the bottom too cold. I have moved them to the surface...so, I should know soon. I have read of people having this problem if they leave the waterfall running. I think it's essentially the same thing. Super-cooling. I appreciate all the help..just angry I lost those two!!!!

Sometimes people who do not have bottom drains clean out their ponds for the winter a little late in the season stessing them . The bio filtration never really recovers if the temperatures drop . This can cause fatalities and another good reason for bottom drains especially in colder climates .
Regards
Eugene

[JasPR]

First, if I had a dollar for every pond owner in trouble that said to me " I NEVER had problems in winter before this" I'd be a very wealthy guy! Winter is NEVER a problem- until it is a problem!
There is one thing predictable about winter in the Northeast and midwest, it is NOT predictable!
And you don't really become sensitive to this unless you are a gardener or a koi keeper.
A lot of the reaction of koi to winter conditions and reports vary because things are so different from pond to pond, such as :

1) what is the pond like ( size, depth, design, filter etc)

2) how old are the fish and what is their physical size ( sex, size, age)

3) Is the winter characterized by lots of precipitation, very cold nights, thaws and quick frosts etc?

4) what was the condition of the fish and how acclimated were they when winter started?

5) part of the learning curve of koi keeping can be put down to an understanding that koi are sturdy animals and they have a relatively broad survival range that has within it, an optimal range. If you keep koi in the optimal range you can grow them and decide which ones to keep long term. If you keep them within the survival range, it is nature that is going to decide which ones will be 'kept' and which ones will go. Carp produce 100,000 - 200,000 offspring a throw. By age five it is estimated that no more than 1,000 remain. Predation, winter, drought all take a toll.
In koi, 100,000- 200,000 are produced. Predation is replaced by culling and the weak survive. Therefore the survival range is contracted closer to the inner optimal range. Winter, in turn, kills more of the spawn percentage wise. You are the only thing standing in the way of this natural culling.

The things to do now after the 'thinking' phase is over here is to:

1) cover the pond to keep out surface wind chill and rain
2) scape the koi for parasites.
3) begin taking temperature readings of the water both morning and night and write this data down.
4) begin building an indoor alternative if these are tosai or fish you bought after the end of July.

JR

[Brutuscz]

This pond is relatively new. I moved last year in october and built a 16,000gal pond. It is 5ft4inches deep. One fish that died was nisai one was tosai...both survived my new pond last season. If any others lay over...I will catch and scope. This season has been strange...it got cold and rainy very quickly after a warm fall. I haven't added any new koi recently. I quarantined all new koi for at least a month...and treated with quick cure and prazi to prevent parasites. I even dipped all new koi in tricide to prevent columnaris.
Even though I have been keeping koi for 8+years, the new pond and system has made for a new learning curve. Almost feels like starting from scratch. My old pond was shaded, tons of trees, average hard water and 7,000gal. The new one has no shade, direct sunlight and very soft water. My care taking regimen and requirements are completely different than my old pond. I had a decent season health wise for my fish...until this happened. I will watch closely when I get home from work and update everyone on any new developments. Thanks again for the help..it is appreciated.

[Auntiesue]

I think taking JR's advise to rule out anything that could be causing this, but I've been hearing a lot about fish laying over and dead fish already this season. More than I remember from earlier years. In all the cases where the fish was still alive, once the fish was brought inside and slowly warmed up, the fish was just fine. If I were to venture a guess (once you've ruled out parasite problems) I will almost bet it is cold water stress. Can you bring fish indoors or somehow cover the pond and warm things up a bit?

[KoiCop]

I hear what you're saying about cold water stress, Sue, but here's the thing: It's only December.

From what I've read, healthy fish in a healthy pond going into winter normally wouldn't be showing this level of stress this soon?

That's why I think there's another dynamic going on here, perhaps one that's related to their condition prior to going into winter?

[Brutuscz]

Definitely cold water stress. Two other koi started to lay over. I brought them in...in a 30gal tub of their own water. I am doing a gradual re-warming and they are doing better. Upright and swimming. I actually put styrofoam to float on top and a bag of ice. This has slowed the re-warming. I want it to be very gradual. So far..so good. I'm just angry because I probably could have saved those other two...just never dealt with this before. Ignorance is not always bliss!!!
My next question. When they are re-warmed and I put them in my quarantine tank....How do I treat them? I have baytril and nuflor to inject. I also have BGDX, quick cure(form/mal green) and PP. Is there something I should definitely do....or just wait and see? One of the two is a shiro utsuri with a yellowish area on the back. Might be devitalized tissue?
I measured the temperature at the bottom of the pond...36deg last night!!! I shut one of my air pumps to prevent that supercooling effect. So, just one pump with 2 airstones at the surface. I am watching them all very closely now. Thanks again!!!

[koiscales]

Quote: Originally Posted by Brutuscz Definitely cold water stress. Two other koi started to lay over. I brought them in...in a 30gal tub of their own water. I am doing a gradual re-warming and they are doing better. Upright and swimming. I actually put styrofoam to float on top and a bag of ice. This has slowed the re-warming. I want it to be very gradual. So far..so good. I'm just angry because I probably could have saved those other two...just never dealt with this before. Ignorance is not always bliss!!! My next question. When they are re-warmed and I put them in my quarantine tank....How do I treat them? I have baytril and nuflor to inject. I also have BGDX, quick cure(form/mal green) and PP. Is there something I should definitely do....or just wait and see? One of the two is a shiro utsuri with a yellowish area on the back. Might be devitalized tissue? I measured the temperature at the bottom of the pond...36deg last night!!! I shut one of my air pumps to prevent that supercooling effect. So, just one pump with 2 airstones at the surface. I am watching them all very closely now. Thanks again!!!

Did you scrape these fish and find parasites? If not you should so you know what if anything you are dealing with.

KS