Lost in Japan

[Ryan S.]

Dealers are usually clear that fish kept in Japan are at the risk of the hobbiest. Its a bit unreasonable to expect a breeder or dealer to cover what in many cases are 5 figure cost b/c they collected maybe $300 boarding fee that is pretty much at cost of keeping the fish. If that was expected of them it would make no sense for them to keep growing the fish

[JasPR]

Ryan, true but not correct. True but not correct?? Yep

Koi sales at the high end is about relationship. This is called intangible sales.
Even though the buyer sees this as a transactional sale of a single item, it is about relations and future sales.
Every hobbyist has a shelf like, not unlike the fish's 'show life'. During that life time of buying, they will likely spend more and more for koi albeit buying less and less koi in total numbers. The entire marketing model is actually to have a koi kichi buy many lower quality koi to gain experience and slowing trade back five or six in order to buy two or three and eventually trade back three to buy one. This works well for both new ponder and dealer alike as experience is gained and fish are no longer being killed and at the same time, the eye of the hobbyist is developing to a point where they can truly appreciate good koi. Meanwhile the dealer has sold many fish along the way. Both the Japanese breeder and dealer know this model. So they decide if a fish will be reimbursed or not based on the customer's potential- yes there are tategoi buyers as well as tategoi koi.

I have three fish missing right now valued at $13,000. One in Japan and two in England. I have a few friends who are missing some very very expensive fish. This stuff happens. After all, they are fish and highly vulnerable to predation and disease! I'd say that if you are doing this long enough your loses can amount to, over an extended period of time, about 30% of all fish you leave over there. Of the six I have lost over the 1990's, one was replaced and three are promised to be replaced. Haven't seen that yet however.
Therefore, Replacement of EQUAL quality is done on a one by one basis against a general policy of NO REFUND for leaving fish in a mud pond or at a facility.
Times are changing and many are having second thoughts about leaving fish in Japan for grow out these days. It just isn't like it used to be a decade ago. Just as the preferred Japanese Style show is now gone, I can envision a day when the grow out in Japan experience will cease from both the breeder and consumer camps. The fish have just become too expense to gamble on.

But do remember, if you leave fish over there to revisit so you can learn how koi grow, and you get to also see siblings, as well as your friends purchases, and the new crop of younger spawns ( brothers and sisters of your purchase) you are really paying for the education as much as the fish. The fish you buy becomes a vehicle that makes all that happen. I sometimes look at it as 'tuition to nishikigoi college'. Hey, my kid is costing me $45,000 a year for her education! A few thousand for mine seems like a bargin!

Sue, I just wanted to say I'm sorry for your loss, I have felt it and I know it stings. But it is part of the game of koi. Hope the showa makes it over OK!

JR

[Steve Nguyen]

AuntieSue,

thank you for started this thread. this is excellent info. sure answered my most important question on leaving fish grow up in Japan. I must admit that lately I was serious considering pickup a few and let them grow out in japan for a few years. My plan is to have my big pond build in 3 years prior to bring them back. Now, that's plan is out of the window.

I also heard that breeders are shipping fish back to buyers way, way before it's ready due to overcrowded mud ponds and fishes are dying.

hi JR,

if it's truly a "relationship" business, I would think the breeder can give 50% credit toward purchasing a new fish and the dealer should charge half of the handling fee on the replacement fish. some dealers is more of transactional sales.

50% credit for the breeder is spare change as compare to their overall revenue. it's not like the dealer only handle your only fish. they are doing this minimal work on their part.

I know I am dreaming but now the hobbyists think twice before I leave their fish in Japanese.

Steve

[111whalen]

Ramblings:
I wonder why so many fish are lost? Mud ponds are good for fish and the dealer/breeder wants those fish to survive and improve.
JR spoke to relationships-what is happening to the rest of you? Any compensation?

[farne230]

Auntisue, I am very sorry for your loss. This tread has helped me decide not to board koi. I can not take the loss. I have been told over and over only buy what you can afford to loose. Sounds safe but never happens with me, I end up spending more then I budgeted on koi. Steve, I am with you, I plan on buying nisai tategoi and hope they turn out show worthy. I have also heard from retailers that only a small portion of their customers loose boarded koi-I wonder?

Again sorry for your lost, hang in there it will all turn out okay.
Bob

[Auntiesue]

Quote: Originally Posted by farne230 Auntisue, I am very sorry for your loss. This tread has helped me decide not to board koi. I can not take the loss. I have been told over and over only buy what you can afford to loose. Sounds safe but never happens with me, I end up spending more then I budgeted on koi. Steve, I am with you, I plan on buying nisai tategoi and hope they turn out show worthy. I have also heard from retailers that only a small portion of their customers loose boarded koi-I wonder? Again sorry for your lost, hang in there it will all turn out okay. Bob

Bob, this is a very personal decision that each of us that purchase koi will have to make for themselves. Many have great experiences doing this. I can't think of a better home for koi then in the master's hands, BUT saying that...I have not lost a fish in over 5 years except one that came in this summer that "just wasn't right" to begin with and one that jumped from the pond this summer. This was also my very first experience with leaving fish in Japan. As you can see these fish were quite exceptional examples. It is still sinking in that we will never see that Kohaku. This fish was not harvested last fall because the breeder didn't have room inside. Evidently he has well over 100 ponds and very little help.

Both these fish were scheduled to come home LAST WINTER, but for one reason and other, they never made it here. So we had to wait for the next harvest. The thrill of seeing them was dashed. We didn't even get pictures as updates. So for two years we've worried and wondered.

IMHO, it's simply not worth it. If those fish were in my ponds, I feel fairly certain that they would be alive and well today.

These fish were hopefully going to go to the Orlando show this spring as well. Now I don't know what we'll do come March!!!

[aquitori]

Like one dealer said koi is a living thing, so anything can happen. One can only hope that the dealer and breeder relationship is strong enough that if a fish is missing that there is some sort of compensation.

Now in the story that Steve gives, if a fish is left in Japan that fish is "considered" again if it should be left. Now if the breeder says that the fish should be sent back because of unsafe conditions in the mudpond then you have to accept what the breeder says.

[dick benbow]

Over the years I've come to expect that some times you win and sometimes you loose and sometimes they blow out of a color and come home earlier than hoped. I do agree that it is part of the hobby, the same as if a preditor
invades our backyard. I thank-you for posting, because I think it helps those who have yet to experience the anxiety of leaving one in the mud in japan to decide a head of time if they could bare the loss. I have always been graciously blessed with another koi of equal value, even tho I was told it was I who would assume the risk. I'm sorry for your loss and hope you'll be rewarded/compensated in other ways. We value you and your contribution here.

[kntry]

I always thought you could buy insurance on the fish left in Japan like you can with Quality Koi.

I'm really sorry, Sue. I hope the replacement is just as nice.

[luke frisbee]

Sue,
I am so upset at my loss...I really wanna see THAT showa. MAKE THEM FIND IT. I wanna see it.
Signed,
Luke
PS. Sure the Kohaku looks perfect, and might have won GC, but that Showa..Wowzie!)
FIND IT.