SJKoi - Sanke Development 12/07

[Richard Rombold]

I started a thread Spring '07 concerning the development of marusome kiwa in my sanke blood line. Since this Spring the conversation has shifted to the sanke line in general and it's development. I'll repost relevant pics here and bring the thread up as the fish mature. The essential question to me is the sumi development.

Toshio Sakai "no good koi"

Russ was gracious enough to pass on the pics to Toshio Sakai who declared there were "no good koi". I'll have to admit that stung for about 10 minutes, but hey that is why I post here. Honest critique. I don't know the criteria he was using, but it is obvious he was less than impressed. I respectfully disagree. Time will tell, and in a few years we'll be able to both judge the quality of this sumi and Mr. Sakai's eye. This is a great forum for open critique, and I for one appreciate honest criticism from the best.


10/07 at 6 weeks


12/07 at 15 weeks

[PapaBear]

My eye and level of experience can't hold a candle to many (ok... MOST) of the regulars here, but I'm more than happy to toss out some food for thought from my perspective.

I do not like Dianichi Tategoi Tosai, Nissai, Sansai.. There. I said it.
They're too damn skinny, poor looking, weakly colored, and I would NEVER take one to a show...
Until it came out of the mud that one last time and went to a finishing tank that is.
Then I would absolutely LOVE their Tategoi because they would be looking like entirely different fish. Massive frames, long powerful bodies, and richly colored to an AJS worthy finish.

Same thing goes for Brady's fish. Damn gray sumi and dull orangy beni on those showa of his... Until they finally get around to growing up and the beni is like thick velvet with sumi to match.

Distinct developmental characteristics that make a bloodline unique. They start here but they finish THERE It is the breeders art to know his own work, recognize its strengths and weaknesses at each step, and understand each stage of development as the fish move through time.
These are the product of a distinct breeding program that has developed a unique bloodline. Luckily for us, it is preserving one of the best old lines from Japan (Jinbie)and at the same time, building new and improved traits into it. One of the best things about it is the fact that we are getting to participate vicariously in the process, which I think is WAAAAAY COOOOOL

Richard,
To help us along the road to understanding the bloodline and its development, is it possible to have a pictoral genealogical record of the building block parent sets that brought you to this point? The opportunity to see the generational progress as you have moved them along could be very educational.

[KoiCop]

Richard . . .

While all roads might lead to Rome, not all of them go through Isawa (or San Joaquin) to get there.

So yours don't look like his? Persevere.

[carolyn swanson]

Well said, Larry.

[Bob Winkler]

I agree with much of what Larry said.. Is it possible to see the parent set(s) and older siblings? As an aside, perhaps more detail in Mr Sakai's assessment might be helpful to you and to us... meaning.... Was it as simple as that? or what didn't he like? In judging alongside him, seeing him at US and other koi shows, and also in dealing with him for 10 years, I have not heard Mr Sakai talk of koi in such a short response, but usually more diplomatic and filled with nuggets to learn from. That may be the road to learning therin...whether you agree or not...

[aquitori]

"No good Koi", well either this statement will make you stronger or flush all these koi in the toilet....To me I would prove the man wrong....Kind of funny knowing that from Toshio's background as a breeder he has been trying to prove alot of people wrong.

[Richard Rombold]

As good as Toshio Sakai is, I have the advantage here. These are my fish after all. I form my opinions slowly, and have watched this bloodline mature for years. This I know, these fish are unique. You can't come to that opinion by seeing a single set of photographs for the first time. They are not the entire package, but there are good elements that can be extracted and recombined into something even better. It's the process towards a goal that is the point of the thread. Not where we are now, but an endless point on the horizon. Every person's opinion is valuable and only God has the last word. Well him, my wife and then of course my daughter.

I'll post some photos later of the parent sets, and then let's put this thread to bed and see what we are looking at next year.

[aquitori]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Rombold As good as Toshio Sakai is, I have the advantage here. These are my fish after all. I form my opinions slowly, and have watched this bloodline mature for years. This I know, these fish are unique. You can't come to that opinion by seeing a single set of photographs for the first time. They are not the entire package, but there are good elements that can be extracted and recombined into something even better. It's the process towards a goal that is the point of the thread. Not where we are now, but an endless point on the horizon. Every person's opinion is valuable and only God has the last word. Well him, my wife and then of course my daughter. I'll post some photos later of the parent sets, and then let's put this thread to bed and see what we are looking at next year.

Let's put it this way Richard, if you were in Japan and at the top of your game there I wouldnt be surprised to see Toshio Sakai at an auction of yours buying fish...

Toshio knows what he wants out of his fish and so do you. Maybe Toshio didnt see those heavy pattern fish he is so well famous for selling in your culling bowl.

[Super Kindai]

I know that you have spent a lots of time & effort for that....but, in my honest opinion, the beni/hiban are too weak overall.

the attached pics : tosai bred in our backyard this year for fun.
they ARE definitely "backyard level" kois for me but I keep some of kohakus for fun & study.