positively...a koi pond

[The Pond Digger]

Mitten,

I just wanted to check in to see if you have broke ground on your MKP yet. Can you please give us an update? Did you go radius or rectangle? Depth at 3' or 4'? Any Photos? Please give us the details when you have the opportunity.

Respectfully,

The Pond Digger

[KoiCop]

No decision.

Right now he's on a road trip back to Michigan to pick up the last of his stuff and move it on down to Florida.

[dick benbow]

has always been double the depth to create the width and double the width to create the length.

I think what's most difficult for beginners who would ask for a basic starting point is that it's exactly that. A base from which you can develop from. Your interests change with time and knowledge.

I know many of you have heard my circle of koi theory....but for the few that haven't

First you just want to have a pond.
then you want to get one of each koi that can be identified by color variety
then you just want show koi
then you just want time back to spend time with your pond like you did to start with.

Too bad ponds can't be build in basic units that you could unhinge, unsnap
and add another basic unit with bottom drain and side walls to fit into your basic unit as your interest and skill expanded.

Just as an aside was talking to a local pond builder who was addamate that one should not use carpeting to protect a liner as it deteriorates over time
and creates a harmful gas. had never heard that one before? Any comments?
Don? Kent?

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow Just as an aside was talking to a local pond builder who was addamate that one should not use carpeting to protect a liner as it deteriorates over time and creates a harmful gas. had never heard that one before? Any comments?

That's a new one to me.

[Eugeneg]

Just as an aside was talking to a local pond builder who was addamate that one should not use carpeting to protect a liner as it deteriorates over time
and creates a harmful gas. had never heard that one before? Any comments?
Don? Kent?[/quote]

Carpeting can pollute ground water it is just like burying garbage under the pond .
Carpeting can have a hidden staple which are nearly impossible to detect .
It is difficult to lay linner over carpeting
In colder climates it can act as insolation untill it breaks down resulting in loss of ground heat and can make a pond colder if unheated .
Felt underlay is low cost enviromentally friendly and designed for the purpose .
Being cheep can be costly in the long run and this is especially true to ponds .
Regards
Eugene

[mitten]

Pedal to the metal and I have now moved. Jeff the Dogg is with me in the South! We talk funny now. Well he barks funny, a little slower and kinda twangy. Michigan and Deetroit can bite my butt. Sorry JNorth but Deetroit can bite yours too if you'd like.

My building permit was approved before I left so I am ready to roll, building my last house, (unless I get unpoor again). During a meeting with inspectors this week I will let it drop about building pond(s). Testing the waters.

So, no verdicts, no decisions, no plans yet. When things move again I know I can count on Stan Ellis and Dan Chen to kick in with techspurteese. (See, I can spell anything!)

Biggest problem is that I read everything you guys say and digest and assimilate it. I know Dicks formulas. Heck my grandkids know Dick's formulas.

Brings me to my second, bigger, biggest problem, and that is that I have to decide what is in and what is out on the minimum formula. I thought I'd get more input from the big guys. I thought there would be more of a direction toward consensus. And then I have to build a MINIMUM koi pond, not dress it up and improve it, and then let it run as a minimum keeping pond to show its validity as an assemblage of YOUR ideas, proof to new hobbyists, and dumazzes, that you guys know something.

No biggy. Comin right up, bruddas.

[kent wallace]

Hey Dick, Once again I think this is a case of one persons anecdotal experience with one or more ponds. Carpet isn't just "carpet". It can be made of lots of materials, wool, felt, hemp, nylon etc. I can imagine that any carpet made of natural materials would normally decompose over time with, of course, methane as an end product but if the carpet was a manmade synthetic material like nylon it would probably last forever. His statement to you probably should have been "never use carpet made of ?????? for underlayment because it deteriorates over time and creates a harmful gas.

[kent wallace]

Hey Mitten, one of the reasons you can't get a concesus from the "big guys" is that this is a very difficult problem. For years all of us "koi kichi" have said that a koi pond is different but have never come together with an exact line of demarcation as a specific defined thing. We all have our preferences that basically do the same thing but in slightly different fashions.
I have dealt with inspectors and their leadership who always fall back on swimming pool codes for only one reason. Depth exceeding 18 inches resulting in safety issues and since the only codes that exhist are pool codes for bodies of water over 18 inches that's where you battle from. We desperately need to determine, as a "nation wide group" of clubs, installers and hobyists what that line of demarcation is. Each year or so localities have meetings to evaluate changes in the upcoming codes and it's mostly watergarden reps that are asked to attend because that's who's "in the loop". Here in the Las Vegas area they told me that last year they had professionals come in to advise about the new codes and guess who wasn't represented. Us of course! They didn't allow them to vote, just advise, but they said that this next go around they would let us/me or whoever I could get to attend have an actual vote in the pond codes. This is a major milestone and when the meeting comes around I intend to put the word out and invite any of you from anywhere in the country to come and possibly have a vote. We're fairly high on the list of pools built per capita and it's for this reason it might start here rather than some other state or county.
Some of you may not realize it but Las Vegas already has the highest fire and safety codes in the nation along with some of the highest health and safety codes for restaraunts. We set the standards for the rest of the nation in these largely because of the MGM high rise fire in the late 70's. We are also one of the most surveiled cities in the nation and security agencies from here helped after the 911 disaster to improve security methods. It's not too far a stretch to think we might be able to start setting the ground rules for the future here.
For this reason I think this might be one of the most important threads and discussions to surface on the boards.
I rebuild a lot of smaller fish ponds and think any pond with fish needs to have a bottom drain with a debris free bottom surface leading to prefiltration but that's just me.
Let's get back to the very basics we can all agree on. Let's please define the minimum standards because I/we need it shortly.

We can all agree that a koi pond must have a bottom drain with a debris free bottom pond surface to prevent detritus build up and remove the worst water from the pond. Can we even, for codes sake, state the size of the bottom drain? If it were two inch direct suction it would still work even though it creates some maintenance issues?
Maybe we should state that "for a pond to be considered a koi pond it must have as a minimum....................." and go from there. I don't think structural issuses need be addressed here, just minimum system dynamics or concepts. Then we can go on to size, depth etc.
Please continue.

[The Pond Digger]

Is this thread DEAD or ALIVE? Will we ever come to a resolution on the requirements of a minimum koi pond. I certainly don't want to beat a dead horse but I had to dodge some bullets to come along this far and don't want to see this thread get tossed under the carpet without some resolve.

I have used this thread as motivation to build what should be considered a MINIMUM KOI POND by the serious hobbyist, to raise my Shiro Utsuri's in the MYSTIC Koi / Koi Bito Grow Out Contest. Heck, I'm not even gonna install any underwater lights!

Now admittedly, I'm still in the process of this KOI POND installation. You know this isn't a one day pond installation.

I've added a few extras to this koi pond, that I believe take it beyond the MINIMUM KOI POND requirements just for the fun of it, including a CETUS Sieve from Evolution Aqua that I picked up at Mystic Koi.

Was there a decision made on what style shell structure, filter requirements, gallons, depth, etc. that would be installed by the person who originally posted this thread.

For details on what I have installed, with consideration of the information in this thread, please review my Thread in the Grow Out Forum.

The Pond Digger Grow Out Stats

Respectfully,

The Pond Digger

[mitten]

All props to you Digger for muscling out a koi pond using this info. Thread is not dead! No way! you'll be able to find it for years.

Stan and Kent and DCNY are all helpful and still involved. It looks like there will be 3D CAD drawings of the actual pond. Like your experience, the hard part is NOT enhancing it, and just keeping it minimum.

The inspectors were approached as my house got going. Their only question?...Will any dirt be moved onto or off of the property? Heck no. But I got referred to the zoning department anyway. (I think because it was right across the hall) What was their only question? Right. "will any dirt..."

The part of Florida I've moved to is pretty colorful. Plenty of horses, cattle, goats. Little crop though. I've seen for hay and pines and that's about all. But there are many stories about the good old days, 70's 80's 90's, when everybody grew cash crop in the woods. No inhaling of course. I can't wait for when I build greenhouses and my electric bills skyrocket...the helicopters will be thick. Already have two former coppers lined up as contractors helping on the house. One or both maybe will help with parts of the minimum koi pond also. Hopefully they will somehow keep me safe from DEA and ATF.