positively...a koi pond

[Eugeneg]

[quote=Fishbreeder;97460]6000 gallons and six feet deep, good size for a minimal koi pond. But, no EPDM!!! A proper koi pond is made out of gunnite and plaster, or maybe concrete and polyurea. I've waaay had my fill of fooling with pond liners. I can think of maybe four ponds with liners that work like they ought to. Otherwise, its leaks, folds with grunge in them, plumbing difficulties, and rocks on the bottom. A proper koi pond is not made out of EPDM, PVC, or other plastic liner material. A koi pond, maybe, a proper koi pond, no way. Liners are to be used on the bottom of landfills, not koi ponds.

Brett
There is no problem with a EPDM liner pond . Where the water table is high they might be even better as a cemment pond could float up . I have built boath and the cement one ,even doing everything myself cost at least 4 times the amount . This makes it un affordable to most people . However you have a very good point on folds in liner ponds I overcame this problem somwhat by going to a rectangular shape . The bottom has no folds at all and all the folds are at the 2 ends . I even decided how my folds were going to be by practicing doing a shoe box . The pressure of the water keeps the folds in position the only problem is circulation in the four corners but even that is a minimal problem. In reality no pond other than a mud pond is the most desireble but that is not possible for most I am one of the lucky people that has one in the garden .
Regards
Eugene

[Fishbreeder]

I've been to hundreds of liner ponds. Only a few seemed worth a darn. Almost all of them leaked. Drain the liner pond and there is water underneath it.

Even at a fourth the installation cost, I beleive concrete or gunnite to be cheaper in the long run. I know of gunnite ponds over 20 years old. I know of no such liner ponds. I know of a lot of places that used to be liner ponds. Now they are concrete or gone altogether.

Now, for a minimal cost installation, koi pond, I guess a liner would have to do.

To be fair, most of the liner ponds I;ve seen are "Aquascapes" ponds. I know I could do a better job of making a koi pond, even if I had to use a liner. One thing for sure is an external filtration system that can easily be backwashed or cleaned. No way to clean the filters in one of those Aquascapes ponds without "getting some on you." Yucch.

We will be building a liner pond nearby soon. I can;t stand it, but that's the way it is. We'll see how it works out. It will surely be a "minimalist" koi pond.

Brett

[koiczar]

Here's a few shots of a EPDM liner pond we built a few years ago. I agree with Brett, liner is a pain in the butt to get out all wrinkles. This customer turned out to be a very knowledgeable water quality person. She has reef tanks where she actually breeds saddle clowns and multiplies anemone. She has done an excellent job of maintaining the fish in this pond. She is very aware of it's "downsides(liiner) but her water quality is very high.

The pond came out to approx. 10x20x 4.5-5' deep.Final gallonage is 6500gal including filters. Two bottom drains, two skimmers, a 500 gal settlement chamber, Ultima 10000 mech filter to 150 gal bio filter with Matala mat. There are 2 tprs and a waterfall.The skimmers run a separate circuit with another Ultima 6000 and 80 watt UV. Turnover is once every 50 minutes. This feeds the TPRs while the main system feeds the waterfall.There are 13 fish total in the system. They have all been grown from tosai, around 8-10 inch and are now over 20".

If we were to build this pond today, it would only be done in gunite with either Permaflex or Pond Shield for a sealer. We just won't build a liner pond this size again! The cost, BTW, is not quadruple for gunite. For this size pond, it would increase the cost of the project from around $27,500 to about $35,000. A difference of about 25-30%!

Mike

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Here's a few shots of a EPDM liner pond we built a few years ago. I agree with Brett, liner is a pain in the butt to get out all wrinkles. This customer turned out to be a very knowledgeable water quality person. She has reef tanks where she actually breeds saddle clowns and multiplies anemone. She has done an excellent job of maintaining the fish in this pond. She is very aware of it's "downsides(liiner) but her water quality is very high. The pond came out to approx. 10x20x 4.5-5' deep.Final gallonage is 6500gal including filters. Two bottom drains, two skimmers, a 500 gal settlement chamber, Ultima 10000 mech filter to 150 gal bio filter with Matala mat. There are 2 tprs and a waterfall.The skimmers run a separate circuit with another Ultima 6000 and 80 watt UV. Turnover is once every 50 minutes. This feeds the TPRs while the main system feeds the waterfall.There are 13 fish total in the system. They have all been grown from tosai, around 8-10 inch and are now over 20". If we were to build this pond today, it would only be done in gunite with either Permaflex or Pond Shield for a sealer. We just won't build a liner pond this size again! The cost, BTW, is not quadruple for gunite. For this size pond, it would increase the cost of the project from around $27,500 to about $35,000. A difference of about 25-30%! Mike

I like that you put in a concrete collar. It will help with stability.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Eugeneg Is everybody laying back and thinking "It's gotta be 6 feet and 6,000 gallons"?

I went 8000 US gal and 6ft with 2 bottom drains thinking it was an over kill
now I wish it was 12,000 gal . It is never big enough . I would go for 8000 gal minimum with 2 bottom drains . You do not need to use them both drains,in fact with just a few fish you will not need as much filtration . Then you can in a few years time put in the filtration necessary for your fish load .
It is extremely costly to add on size to a pond it is lower cost to build a new one . Or the other option is to build a 2,ooo gal and use it for Quarantine pond when you finally can afford a koi pond
Regards
Eugene[/quote]

OH Believe me it is "big enough."
Lake Luke

But that is another thread....
Four feet
One Bottom drain
one vortex settlement chamber
one external pump
one PMS
One Beer

[mstrseed]

Quote: Originally Posted by Eugeneg Where the water table is high they might be even better as a cemment pond could float up . Eugene

I cannot buy this thought process. For a concrete pond to float it would have to:
#1 be lighter than water......62.4 pounds per cubic foot for water.
Concrete would be at roughly 148 pounds per cubic foot and this would vary by batch design. The design my figure came from was a 5000 PSI design with 1" limestone rock, 6.75 sack mix.
#2 Displace enough water to float, as the pond would also have water in it...........................................thats another 62.4 pounds of weight per gallon!!!!!!!
Oh so how much steel is going in to this ???? maybe another 1000 pounds???

If your water table is that high you would never get a liner pond in the ground............................................ ....

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by mstrseed I cannot buy this thought process. For a concrete pond to float it would have to: #1 be lighter than water......62.4 pounds per cubic foot for water. Concrete would be at roughly 148 pounds per cubic foot and this would vary by batch design. The design my figure came from was a 5000 PSI design with 1" limestone rock, 6.75 sack mix. #2 Displace enough water to float, as the pond would also have water in it...........................................thats another 62.4 pounds of weight per gallon!!!!!!! Oh so how much steel is going in to this ???? maybe another 1000 pounds??? If your water table is that high you would never get a liner pond in the ground............................................ ....

A rebar and gunite pool "floating" is rare but VERY real. Every reputable pool contractor has POP INSURANCE for that reason. Liner installation would certainly have problems in the same environment. There are of course solutions to the problem if you are building in said environment. It is easier to deal with prior to construction if you are aware a water table issue.

However, you could live in an area without water table issues . For example, you could live in an area with a clay base soil and unexpectedly run into this POP problem. Faulty automatic water fill valve, neighbor that waters WAY too much, flash floods can create this problem after a fire destroys your local hillside and the list goes on..........

The Pond Digger

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee One Beer

Did someone say Beer?

The Pond Digger

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar Here's a few shots of a EPDM liner pond we built a few years ago. I agree with Brett, liner is a pain in the butt to get out all wrinkles. This customer turned out to be a very knowledgeable water quality person. She has reef tanks where she actually breeds saddle clowns and multiplies anemone. She has done an excellent job of maintaining the fish in this pond. She is very aware of it's "downsides(liiner) but her water quality is very high. The pond came out to approx. 10x20x 4.5-5' deep.Final gallonage is 6500gal including filters. Two bottom drains, two skimmers, a 500 gal settlement chamber, Ultima 10000 mech filter to 150 gal bio filter with Matala mat. There are 2 tprs and a waterfall.The skimmers run a separate circuit with another Ultima 6000 and 80 watt UV. Turnover is once every 50 minutes. This feeds the TPRs while the main system feeds the waterfall.There are 13 fish total in the system. They have all been grown from tosai, around 8-10 inch and are now over 20". If we were to build this pond today, it would only be done in gunite with either Permaflex or Pond Shield for a sealer. We just won't build a liner pond this size again! The cost, BTW, is not quadruple for gunite. For this size pond, it would increase the cost of the project from around $27,500 to about $35,000. A difference of about 25-30%! Mike

Can you please explain the plywood? I presume since the carpet padding is attached to the plywood, it is a permanent part of the structure?

What is behind the plywood? Dirt?

What is the projected lifespan of this koi pond?

What state are you in?

Do you have a contractor's license? If so, what class?

These questions will help to establish what a DIYer can do in the privacy of their own backyard as a minimum koi pond as opposed to who, what, where, why, and how a contractor/businessman can "Legally" & professionally perform the same minimum koi pond design.

With Humility,

The Pond Digger

[luke frisbee]

Yep pools go POP here in Florida..But only pools that are allowed to drain or are not filled before the deadman's pump is turned off/quits.
I hung around with the "pool crowd" 15 years ago....
I only have first hand experience of one though...
The Pool boy was siphoning off some water for some "away owners" because the skimmers didn't work after the recent rains had raised the water level...he for got to pull the siphon and when he came back the next week the pool was 6 inches outta the ground at the deep end.