positively...a koi pond

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by mstrseed I cannot buy this thought process. For a concrete pond to float it would have to: #1 be lighter than water......62.4 pounds per cubic foot for water. Concrete would be at roughly 148 pounds per cubic foot and this would vary by batch design. The design my figure came from was a 5000 PSI design with 1" limestone rock, 6.75 sack mix. #2 Displace enough water to float, as the pond would also have water in it...........................................thats another 62.4 pounds of weight per gallon!!!!!!! Oh so how much steel is going in to this ???? maybe another 1000 pounds??? If your water table is that high you would never get a liner pond in the ground............................................ ....

First of all the water tables can be from several feet from surface in the spring to 15ft in the summer . I put socked big o under my cemment pond and dug a 150 ft ditch so it would drain . This way the water table will not climb to high and allows me to drain the pond completely . if that was not done then I could have a situation like a neighbour who drained his swimming pool and It moved up by 12in at one end .I have seen the same with a liner pond and it was just a matter of slitting the linner pumping all the water out and putting a patch on . I have seen a cemment sailboat that was sailed around the world . The biggest factor is that few people can afford to have a pond installed but most could afford to do their own with very basic knowladge providing it is a linner pond . I did everything myself and here is what it cost me .
Mud pond took out and moved 350 trucks of material ........$6000
Greenhouse 27x60 .................................................. ....$8000
8000gal cemment block pond and filtration ............................$5000
Lean to greenhouse linner pond of 8000 gal and filters ...........$ 3000
Used oil furnace and hot water tank and shed ......................$2000
Well dug with an excavator tiles and pumps .........................$2000
All together I spent about $30000 and a lot of hard work so with basic knowlage anyone can do it
Regards
Eugene

[mstrseed]

KO so for 30K you can get a liner in the ground...........................
30K will get cement too....................
Are you sure you neighbors pool was not forced up due to the clay swelling?

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by mitten This is a place that koi dealers should get involved. How many fish can you sell if you only sell to high enders? Wouldn't a whole new crop of pond owners that could accomodate 3 or 4 or 5 fish well be helpful?

Where' my Beer? I'll drink to that. I know RookieKoiGuy is somewhere out there with an opened beer! Cheers............. Get the breeders, the dealers and the contractors involved.

Think about how much more participation could be achieved in local koi clubs & koi shows. How many more "qualified" traditional koi debates could be held? Funds raised for KHV and other koi related research would increase exponentially!

Just think how the local Koi dealers would need to import SEXY Koi from Japan more frequently! How often have you been to a koi retailer's place to see the same koi you saw two or three months prior?

Here is a real opportunity to set standards for not only the hobby but for the pond construction business. I can see it now; The combination of Koi Crazy and Reality will help create the Idiot's Guide to the Minimum Koi Pond!

Thank you Mitten for your contribution. Thank you Koi-Bito for the conduit.

With Humility,

The Pond Digger

[Bob Winkler]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee One Beer

Drats! I knew there was a "one" I was fergettin'.......LOL

[Fishbreeder]

The gunnite ponds I've been involved with have all had "weep holes" in thier bottoms during construction. This to prevent the structure from floating up if a hard rain. The soils in my area are very tight clay and do not allow water to pass down. Once the pond is completed and plastered it is filled and once full won't float up. When drained, it is important to do so during dry weather and refilled prior to heavy rains.

There is a concrete ship out in Galveston Bay. Apparently it did float at least for awhile, but it sank and it still sits partially out of the water, many decades after it sank.

I've seen some big liner ponds that worked, thing is, none of them had straight down sides, they had very gradual slopes (6 to 1 or so) from the water's edge down to the deep part, maybe 3' deep. They work as far as holding water is concerned, they grow filamentous algae like a big dog, fill up with silt, and tend to be "soupy" as far as the water quality is concerned. Not much of a pond for koi.

Large or small, if the pond project is to be a long term thing (ten or more years) over its life, the cost of concrete vs. liner will be more than realized.

Anybody got a liner pond out there more than 15 or even 10 years old?

Brett

[Seefdro Tvneik]

Well, I don't see it this way....Seems like more of a filtration issue to me.

"They work as far as holding water is concerned, they grow filamentous algae like a big dog, fill up with silt, and tend to be "soupy" as far as the water quality is concerned. Not much of a pond for koi."

Never had this problem? Liner has been good to me....With my first liner pond there were some issues though. First problem- Was it would get pushed up by hydro-static pressure.
Second problem- I bought a cheaper type of liner which could not handle the elements very well. (Home Depot season clearence special)

How I solved my problems.......

1) Started to read about koi pond design and get ideas.

2) Made another pond but this one was built with drainage tile along the perimeter of the pond.

In fact my yard now has drainage tile throughout and WORKS GREAT. The water is recycled for my plants during the growing season.

My new pond has a GOOD EPDM LINER. I have seen 45 mil liners used in many applications and know of several ponds which have been "SAFE" using liner for 10 to 15 years.

I don't know why some people here think you need THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO HAVE A KOI POND. If I could drive a Ferrari to where I need to go I WOULD, BUT a Honda will get me there too! The Honda will also save me lots of money too. Could I go racing with a Honda, probably not, but I could "PIMP THAT RIDE".

Futheremore, most newbies are not going to even think about spending $1,000 on a koi....BUT they still want koi, and they admire the opportunity to have one. MY POINT IS if you spend $3,000 on a koi you should probably have a State of the Art pond. But as we know only the UNWISE or STUPID- RICH start off in the hobby like this.

This should be the koi hobby GATEWAY DESIGN and the FIRST steps should represent an affordable Minimum Koi Pond design.

Remember this is a minimum design. If we think a PROPER KOI POND will cost $10,000 we are going to eliminate MANY, MANY, MANY people from the koi hobby.

This means the same wealthy businessmen, Lawyers, doctors, and retired big bank account types, etc. CAN keep this EXCLUSIVE HOBBIE ALL to themselves.

Don't believe that's right on many levels. BUT,THE MAIN ISSUE I HAVE IS YOU DON'T NEED $10,000 to build a koi pond. I think if we can agree with a design which can cost no more than $3,000 we can invite MANY NEW, INTERESTING, INTELLIGENT, AND HAPPY PEOPLE TO THE HOBBIE.

Concrete scares the POOP out of people new to the hobby. Especially when
your talking about permits in many areas in the U.S..

I have had several conversations with young people interested in the hobby. When I mention something like $10,000 dollars for a koi pond...... THAT IS the last I hear from them. Young couples could get divorced over something like this (old couples to, especially those "Mad, must have it keepers"). Don't you care about the Love (just kidding).
Anyways, I think this MINIUM koi pond design should be VERY INVITING $$$$$$! AND YES IT STILL CAN BE WELL BUILT!

Trying to SPREAD THE KOI LOVE!!!!!!

[The Pond Digger]

Well Said Seefdro. The automobile analogy hits the spot. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Respectfully,

The Pond Digger

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Seefdro Tvneik Well, I don't see it this way....Seems like more of a filtration issue to me. "They work as far as holding water is concerned, they grow filamentous algae like a big dog, fill up with silt, and tend to be "soupy" as far as the water quality is concerned. Not much of a pond for koi." Never had this problem? Liner has been good to me....With my first liner pond there were some issues though. First problem- Was it would get pushed up by hydro-static pressure. Second problem- I bought a cheaper type of liner which could not handle the elements very well. (Home Depot season clearence special) How I solved my problems....... 1) Started to read about koi pond design and get ideas. 2) Made another pond but this one was built with drainage tile along the perimeter of the pond. In fact my yard now has drainage tile throughout and WORKS GREAT. The water is recycled for my plants during the growing season. My new pond has a GOOD EPDM LINER. I have seen 45 mil liners used in many applications and know of several ponds which have been "SAFE" using liner for 10 to 15 years. I don't know why some people here think you need THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO HAVE A KOI POND. If I could drive a Ferrari to where I need to go I WOULD, BUT a Honda will get me there too! The Honda will also save me lots of money too. Could I go racing with a Honda, probably not, but I could "PIMP THAT RIDE". Futheremore, most newbies are not going to even think about spending $1,000 on a koi....BUT they still want koi, and they admire the opportunity to have one. MY POINT IS if you spend $3,000 on a koi you should probably have a State of the Art pond. But as we know only the UNWISE or STUPID- RICH start off in the hobby like this. This should be the koi hobby GATEWAY DESIGN and the FIRST steps should represent an affordable Minimum Koi Pond design. Remember this is a minimum design. If we think a PROPER KOI POND will cost $10,000 we are going to eliminate MANY, MANY, MANY people from the koi hobby. This means the same wealthy businessmen, Lawyers, doctors, and retired big bank account types, etc. CAN keep this EXCLUSIVE HOBBIE ALL to themselves. Don't believe that's right on many levels. BUT,THE MAIN ISSUE I HAVE IS YOU DON'T NEED $10,000 to build a koi pond. I think if we can agree with a design which can cost no more than $3,000 we can invite MANY NEW, INTERESTING, INTELLIGENT, AND HAPPY PEOPLE TO THE HOBBIE. Concrete scares the POOP out of people new to the hobby. Especially when your talking about permits in many areas in the U.S.. I have had several conversations with young people interested in the hobby. When I mention something like $10,000 dollars for a koi pond...... THAT IS the last I hear from them. Young couples could get divorced over something like this (old couples to, especially those "Mad, must have it keepers"). Don't you care about the Love (just kidding). Anyways, I think this MINIUM koi pond design should be VERY INVITING $$$$$$! AND YES IT STILL CAN BE WELL BUILT! Trying to SPREAD THE KOI LOVE!!!!!!

OK Seefdro,
Please share with us your idea of a minimum koi pond design, but a word of caution, please be prepared to have it picked apart. In that regard, why would you say, "MY POINT IS if you spend $3,000 on a koi you should probably have a State of the Art pond."?

What is it about a $3000 koi that would require any different environment to live in than a $50 koi? The health of the koi, regardless of price should be the same concern.

You also say, "
Concrete scares the POOP out of people new to the hobby. Especially when
your talking about permits in many areas in the U.S.."

and

" If I could drive a Ferrari to where I need to go I WOULD, BUT a Honda will get me there too! The Honda will also save me lots of money too. Could I go racing with a Honda, probably not, but I could "PIMP THAT RIDE"."

You could also ride a bike, a mopehead, a morocycle, minibike or just plain walk. As for the concrete? Well, there are certain structural concerns that have to be met You could live in a cardboard box, but I am sure that you don't. Permits are typically required to meet specific construction criteria. Those criteria are for safety and structural concerns. Bypassing those criteria are a disaster waiting to happen....as you founbd out on your first pond and although I am not sure, but I would venture a guess based on your statements that your current pond does not meet minimal structural design standards....just a guess, so please share some specifics, drawings and pictures if you would.

Steve

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Pond Digger Well Said Seefdro. The automobile analogy hits the spot. You took the words right out of my mouth. Respectfully, The Pond Digger

LOL...You are kidding right?

Maybe not since you are an ADI installer who actually believes things such as (taken from your website):

Quote: Now the antidote to fish fear is the knowledge that the kinds of fish most people put in their water garden are very hardy varieties, that have evolved in the bowels of Mother Nature herself. They're extremely adept in finding their own food, (believe it or not) with or without you! They'll survive right nicely over the winter, just as long as you keep a hole in the ice and allow gasses to be exchanges. And so long as you steer clear of bottom drains, and Aquascape pond is physically incapable of draining completely and land locking your fish.

Under the ice and no bottom drains? You are wayyyyyy too funny Pond Digger.

Steve

[KoiCop]

Game on. $10 on Steve . . . anyone?
_____
Don

Member, ZNA & AKCA clubs
CKHPA