positively...a koi pond

[mikegarcia]

Thought I'd give you an update. My ADI pond is coming out sometime in Jan-Feb. I am going to install a multi-use pond along with a Koi Pond. I will keep you updated.
The Pond Digger Rocks.

BTW...Thanks for all the advice and suggestions many of you have privately emailed me! All of you ROCK!!!

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikegarcia Thought I'd give you an update. My ADI pond is coming out sometime in Jan-Feb. I am going to install a multi-use pond along with a Koi Pond. I will keep you updated. The Pond Digger Rocks. BTW...Thanks for all the advice and suggestions many of you have privately emailed me! All of you ROCK!!!

Welcome back, are you going to join the party?

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Eric Triplett . . . This is a high-end hobbyist board. Straight from Japan . . . For the Serious Hobbyist! That's our motto.

I am as serious as a Heart Attack or I wouldn't be here.

The Pond Digger

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by mitten I think its in the humility/teachability thing he mentioned, Luke. If you really are here to learn then slide your chair in with your knees under the table Digger. Whole lotta folks here know a whole lot more than us. Good listeners equal good learners. So was it Russel's Water Gardens site where I saw your truck or was that MySpace?

I have had my knees under the table for a couple years, now. At what point do you suppose I would be allowed or should risk the chiming in? This thread is of great interest to me. I am ready to build a similar project on the opposite coast. I have listened long enough and I am ready to participate.

I doubt you will find a photo of my truck on Russell's site. You must of seen The Pond Digger (The Truck) on MySpace.

Respectfully,

The Pond Digger

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Eric . . . To save us all some serious heartburn, here are some K-B threads that you really should review involving some fellows who came here with backgrounds and approachs to ponding strikingly similar to yours: 1. What is SSA (Specific Surface Area)? by John Russell 2. Russell Water Gardens and Kodama Koi Farm Pair Up /Merged Thread by John Russell 3. R/G installer Mike Garcia ready to build his first Koi Pond by Mike Garcia 4. From R&G To Koi Pond by Nancy M. I'm sure you'll realize that there are some pitfalls to be avoided here -- one of which is the 'hybrid koi pond' (which I mention since you advertise it on your website). Best wishes,

Been There Dug That - KoiCop. Like I said, I have sat politely listening for quite sometime now. I've read all your rantings. I'm not impressed, amused, or intimidated. I know you have a reputation to uphold. I expected no less from you.

I'm ready to participate in this thread, like it or not. So break out your torches, get your crosses ready and break out the Tums. I will continue to look to this tread for productive results and not be intimidated by your position or opinions.

Looking Back, Leaning Forward,

The Pond Digger

[The Pond Digger]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi OK Mickey, I sat back in the early portion of this thread (and the one on the Shack) in hopes of seeing someone apply the system approach hilighted in KOI USA. Butttttttt, I guess I'll have to do it. I work in 5000 gallon increments (approximate). Why? Because it becomes the lowest cost per gallon in the system approach that I use. As an example, 12; diameter pond, 6' deep is roughly 5000. That size and gallonage are two of the key components. I think all will agree that a diffuser dome, 4" gravity fed will keep a 12' diameter floor "clean." So there is one of the logical reasons for the 12' diameter. Now, as for the depth. Although you do not have a climate (Florida) which dictates substantial depths below a frost line, the incremental costs of going with a 6' depth verses a minimum of 3' becomes minimal in the totsal pond cost. The equipment is the same, 1 diffuser drain, 1 skimmer (I prefer gravity fed), 2 pumps and filtration systems on both...and UV if desired. Those are the major costs and whether 2500 gallons at 3' of depth or 5000 gallons at 6' of depth, the flow rates, pump sizing and filtration capacities could be equal. Yes, there would be "some" savings at 3' of depth but with those savings come other factors such as water temperature stability. So, for maximizing the footprint at minimal additional costs, I would recommend the 6' depth. Now, for your area, you really only need to go down about 2; with the top of the footer at 18" below grade (minimal acceptable depth for a footer). Thus the pond could then be built up 2.5 feet for the 3' of minimum depth utilizing reinforced concrete block for structural integrity. Excavate deeper for the desired 6' depth. Go on a "Luke" hunt for savings on these materials. For a round pond such as this, I would recommend 2, "sets" of T PRs (making them reversible). A water fall is not "needed" and thus could be "cut" from a minimal design. If you go with the 6' depth, I would suggest a midlevel pick-up stubbed out for future added filtration should you wish to go beyond the 10 mature koi that this design (at 6' depth) could easily accomidate. You could utilize a liner and not even pour a concrete floor but could remove the liner later, pour the floor and then seal with your choice of CIM, Sani Tred, Polyurea or other sealant of your choice later. As for equipment? You choice of many filters out there or even DIY. Myself, for the 2500 gallon version I would go with a baby nexus and the 5000 version the larger nexus. For heavy stocking, a baby nexus or even larger nexus could be added to the gravity skimmer circuit. Again, many filters out there and DIY stuff, just make sure it will handle a 3000 - 4500 gph rate with minimal drop and can accomidate media that stays clean and has sufficient surface area for your desired stocking densities. The shape doesn't have to be round either but TPR and drain placement are dependent on the shape choosen. Here's a rough sketch I made for some friends down in Dallas a few years back to give you a rough idea. Although you are in Florida, Your pond isn't being launched to the moon so I don't think you will need NASA's involvement? Steve

Steve,

I like your logic on cost per gallons not only for installation but the cost to run the feature annually fits in nicely to this plan. In my conversations and interview process with prospective clients the 6 foot depth could be frightening to many, but I will keep that in my pocket and toss the number on the table as I see fit. I am not convinced the 6 foot depth is a mandatory requirement for a Traditional American Koi Pond.

Question: Do you feel dry stack interlocking legacy stone block would be acceptable below ground for creating stability for the verticals? It may be more cost effective, faster to install and less intimidating for most DIYers. Additionally, it would allow another avenue for the contractor to provide cost saving to the homeowner on a tight budget yet looking for professional installation.

Interesting how similar this design is to my #15 post. I am embarrassed to say I have not kept up with my reading of KoiUSA. I have had my nose in Koi Nations. I will need to grab up a subscription.

Respectfully,

The Pond Digger

[cppond]

Quote: Originally Posted by The Pond Digger Steve, I like your logic on cost per gallons not only for installation but the cost to run the feature annually fits in nicely to this plan. In my conversations and interview process with prospective clients the 6 foot depth could be frightening to many, but I will keep that in my pocket and toss the number on the table as I see fit. I am not convinced the 6 foot depth is a mandatory requirement for a Traditional American Koi Pond. Question: Do you feel dry stack interlocking legacy stone block would be acceptable below ground for creating stability for the verticals? It may be more cost effective, faster to install and less intimidating for most DIYers. Additionally, it would allow another avenue for the contractor to provide cost saving to the homeowner on a tight budget yet looking for professional installation. Interesting how similar this design is to my #15 post. I am embarrassed to say I have not kept up with my reading of KoiUSA. I have had my nose in Koi Nations. I will need to grab up a subscription. Respectfully, The Pond Digger

I think that the system that Steve advises may be more than minimally necessary, and perhaps more than you can get someone who has never had a pond to install, but I do think it is precisely the design that someone who started with a water garden and wishes to advance should install for all the reasons Steve has stated.

I would also build into the design an easy way to apply netting or a shade cloth to the pond, and perhaps plastic for winter applications. It may be as easy as installing eye hooks in strategic locations.

That being said, I will throw out something that I doubt will receive much support here, but is critically important in real world applications: Safety.

Very little consideration is given to the safety of children, or even adults, in the design of koi ponds. On another board, we discussed the various ways you can accommodate for that. I would love to hear if any of those of you with strict standards for koi ponds have developed ways to incorporate safety features into your design. If there is an inexpensive way to do that, it should be incorporated into the design being discussed in this thread.

[JasPR]

" I am not convinced the 6 foot depth is a mandatory requirement for a Traditional American Koi Pond."

What is a Traditional American koi pond? JR

[schildkoi]

From Digger:

Quote: Question: Do you feel dry stack interlocking legacy stone block would be acceptable below ground for creating stability for the verticals? It may be more cost effective, faster to install and less intimidating for most DIYers. Additionally, it would allow another avenue for the contractor to provide cost saving to the homeowner on a tight budget yet looking for professional installation.

Answer: No, dry stacking block is not a structurally acceptable method. The problem with most "pond" contractors is that they cut corners where they should not. The shell and its direct plumbing are the single biggest design concern(s). This is the one area that cannot be modified or corrected without a huge additional expense. Notice hoe I advised Mickey he could always change filters and such later (upgrade) if the shell and plumbing is done correctly to begin with.


Carl:

Quote: I think that the system that Steve advises may be more than minimally necessary

How so? BTW, I never said that that specific design was "minimal." I simply advised Mickey of options. As I said, 3' depth could be used...liner, DIY filtration to begin with. However, other than depth, that structure is MINIMAL for an inground koi pond with vertical walls. Now, you want a minimal version of the above utilizing those same system parameters, then use this (above ground):

[schildkoi]

Carl, sorry i forgot about this:

Quote: That being said, I will throw out something that I doubt will receive much support here, but is critically important in real world applications: Safety. Very little consideration is given to the safety of children, or even adults, in the design of koi ponds. On another board, we discussed the various ways you can accommodate for that. I would love to hear if any of those of you with strict standards for koi ponds have developed ways to incorporate safety features into your design. If there is an inexpensive way to do that, it should be incorporated into the design being discussed in this thread.

That is a legitimate concern in my mind. That being said, let's discuss this, shall we? It is easy to incorporate foot depressions intot he shell. Even a "bowling bay" could be incorporated with a depth of about 1-1.5 feet. All that being said, people can still drown in less than 6" of water. The owener has some responsibility here. Unsupervised children is strictly taboo and as an attorney, I am sure you would agree that any contractor should have a very strong warning to perspective clients in this regard.....in writing in the contract. Elevated ponds provide a better "barrier" around the pond perimeter in this regard as well. 6' fences around the area (property) as is the case with swimming pools should also be a consideration.

Mike Garcia: I saw your Koi Pond building article in "Ponds 2008 annual edition." No offense, but I was not impressed. You still leave the impression of digging a hole and throwing a liner into it. Power suction to bead filters? 3 of them? 3 UVs? Nothing about the pond's structure?

Steve