New Pond in Winter & Ammonia

[ootyboy]

Hi,

After months of construction my 8,500 concrete gallon pond is finally up and running. I have added a few fish to start the nitrogen cycle from my old pond. I also followed the advice of Koivet.com, and used the method to expedite the pond cycling by adding "dirty" water from my existing filter that I have had running for about 2 years on a 1000 gallon pond.

However, I have 2 questions:

1. After 1 week with about 4 Koi in the pond (total of 30") I am noticing a small spike in Ammonia. Nitrite is still 0 PPM. My question is should I add Salt to alleviate the Ammonia?

2. I live in San Francisco/Bay Area and I started my pond in the dead of winter -- although our winter is perhaps a lot milder than most. It gets to about 30 F at night and around 55-60 F during the day.
My question is this: Does it take longer for a pond to cycle in cold weather than in warmer climates? Since the Koi are not feeding is it a good time to move them all to the new pond?

Details on Filteration:
8500 Gallon Concrete Pond -- coated with Epoxy resin
1 Aqua Ultima 10,000 Pressure Filter
1 BioSys 18 biological filter
2 Bottom drains
1 no niche skimmer
ESS8500 Pump

The other question is do I have enough filteration for keeping a rather light Koi load?

Thanks in advance for any help in this matter.

[Russell Peters]

Salt will not help with the ammonia but it will help when you get nitrites. Your filter will cycle more slowly in colder temperatures.
I would watch your ammonia to make sure that it does not go above 0.10. You can control your ammonia level by adding ClorAm-X. Add it slowly because you do not want to make the ammonia go away as your filter needs some to cycle. I would also add some nitifying bacteria as well.

Maybe you should wait to add all of them until you see that your new filter is kicking in.

[Rich L]

Quote: Originally Posted by Russell Peters Salt will not help with the ammonia but it will help when you get nitrites. Your filter will cycle more slowly in colder temperatures. I would watch your ammonia to make sure that it does not go above 0.10. You can control your ammonia level by adding ClorAm-X. Add it slowly because you do not want to make the ammonia go away as your filter needs some to cycle. I would also add some nitifying bacteria as well. Maybe you should wait to add all of them until you see that your new filter is kicking in.

Bring the salt to .1%. That will reduce the stress that will occur when the nitrites do appear. Nitrites are the product of ammonia being converted by bacteria so they don’t start until there’s ammonia to nourish those bacteria. Once you see the nitrite spike appear, then disappear, you can stop with the salt.

Don’t worry much about ammonia at low temperatures. It’s almost all in its non-toxic form NH4. As the water warms, I don’t expect your new filters will be able to deal with the ammonia and the ammonia will start to convert to NH3, its toxic form. Your feeding practices won’t be a problem until your stocking levels increase. You will see an ammonia spike about ½ hour after feeding. If your water pH is high, (8.3?) I would start treating 10% water changes at 60 deg. Lower pHs (7.5) probably won’t be a problem unless your filter dies off or you make large water changes. That’s when I would use either ChlorAm-X or Amquell. They are both essentially the same product although commercial selling practices will want you to believe their product is much, much better. Prices aren’t that much different so get whichever is available close to you.

And neither of those products will cause the ammonia to “go away”. They simply bind it and the filter bacteria will still convert it to nitrites when they can catch up.

You will go a long way looking for support for store bought nitrifying bacteria if you check with experienced hobbyists. On the other hand, most people who sell it claim it’s great. Go wonder!

[JasPR]

what temperature is the water in the pond right now? JR

[KoiCop]

Yes, it will take longer to establish your bio-filter but that's OK since with only 30" of koi in 8,500 gallons of 45-50 degree water, the small amount of ambient ammonia you'll register until the bio-filter matures shouldn't require a binder -- and I doubt that your minimal nitrite levels will require salt, either.

As for bottled bugs, save your $$$.

[ootyboy]

The water temp hovers around 42 to 49 F. Thanks for all the replies. I think I am going to hold off on the Salt for the time being. However, I did purchase a better Ammonia test kit. My Pond Care one that I had could only read as low as .25. However, the new one can read as low as .1. After testing with the new kit, I seem to be getting 0.0 parts.

From the looks of things, I think there might have been a problem with the Pondcare test kit.

As for the cycling, I did decide to buy some bacteria and added it to the pond. I know there are some of you who are strongly against bacteria in a bottle, but it is a small investment with very little downside -- except a dent in your pocketbook.

Any suggestions as to how quickly/slowly I should be adding more fish to the pond?

[MikeM]

Wait until pond temperature is 70F before adding more fish. By then the nitrifiers should be established and able to handle the situation. Patience.

[B.Scott]

In order for your filter to cycle the bacteria need to grow ooty. Unfortunately, as Mike suggests, this isn't going to begin before the water temperature gets into the 70°F range

What follows amounts to closing the barn door after the horses have escaped but...

The time to add ANY fish to your pond would be in about 6 months. You would have been better off waiting until that time to purchase fish. You are by no means alone in this mistake. It's an age old story of people spending all summer (or slightly longer) building their dream pond and then filling it with fish in early to late fall. The trouble starts with the water temperatures starting to fall and the bacterial development in the filter screeching to a halt. There then follow ammonia and nitrate problems and the fish develop health problems. Then at some point chemicals are added to the pond which in most cases hammer the already fragile filter bacterium even harder leaving the system in a state worse than in the beginning. It is a vicious cycle and an introduction to the hobby that causes many prospective koi keepers to leave the hobby prematurely.

Ooty I fear you are in for a rough ride and there is very little you will be able to do to prevent it.
Your first option is to learn from your mistakes, take the damage that follows on the nose and replace the fish you lose later in the summer when the filtration is finally up to scratch.

If the first option seems unacceptable you could try either heating the pond to 70°F all winter (NOT CHEAP!) or removing the fish to an (indoor?) cycled quarantine tank and postpone the pond start-up until June.

I don't envy your choices and wish you had gotten access to a little better info before you took the plunge, if nothing else, from the guy who sold you the fish. Did you get them from a dealer?

Good luck

B.Scott

[PapaBear]

I've always been a fan of "seeding the filter" with used media and water from a pre-existing pond. You did use water from your old pond, so assuming the rest of the water was well dechlorinated in the first place you did at least drop in a wee bit of active bio, but probably not enough to do you much good.
At these water temperatures the only real ammonia source will be the slime coat and minimal wastes from the Koi in the pond, so getting your bio to kick off will be painfully slow as already mentioned. The good news is that at low temperatures and moderate ph levels ammonia toxicity is nil, so your fish should be fine for now. They will produce precious little excrement in a virgin pond like this as there is no algae present for them to munch on over the winter.
If they've been surviving in a 1,000 gallon pond for 2 years, an 8,500 gal pond should feel like paradise. Just my opinion, but I would think it would be fine to move 1 per week until they are all moved. So long as ammonia tests remain in check that is. If the ammonia becomes a concern, the chloramex you would use for a regular water change should be sufficient to handle the ammonia as well without starving your filter for food.
You might consider using a heater in the biofilter. Warming the filter water a bit may improve your bio response even though the pond water is still cool.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by ootyboy As for the cycling, I did decide to buy some bacteria and added it to the pond. I know there are some of you who are strongly against bacteria in a bottle, but it is a small investment with very little downside -- except a dent in your pocketbook.

Look at it this way: The bio-bugs you need to grow in your filter are highly aerobic; and whatever the bugs in the bottle you bought are, they sure ain't aerobic. And then there's the temperature thing: If the problem with your aerobic bugs is that they have trouble growing in cold water, why do you think your bottled bugs are going to do any better?

Quote: Originally Posted by ootyboy Any suggestions as to how quickly/slowly I should be adding more fish to the pond?

I wouldn't add any fish until your water warms to 60 degrees in the spring. Since you're in the Bay Area, if you wait for 70 degrees it might be July or August before you reach it.