Koi Dealer Best Health Practices Certification Program

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. Yes Russ, but not here in the USA.. And since we are talking AKCA and USA, Japan does not even play into the equation.

Oops.....sorry I guess I need to pay attention.

[Rich L]

the plan does sound far fetched but certifying a dealor stating they are following the standards can be voluntary. That won't do much unless we stop dealing with uncertified dealors. Then watch them jump and run to the certifying authority.

The problem lies with inspection that can be expensive. Without periodical inspection it's not even worth discussing.

The thought of certifing clube is worth looking at too. Are they up to speed with technical, koi related information and an ongoing training plan for all the members? KHA's are a good start here.

[JasPR]

next stop; world domination! JR

[JasPR]

I find the idea of amateurs telling professionals how to run their shops about as reasonable as professionals telling amateurs how to run their clubs and shows.
I get the idea that some want to 'fix' weasel practices within the dealer community. But this is not the job of hobbyist. Hobbyists who can just manage to get shows off the ground or who have folded 20 year old clubs due to age, energy and lack of activity are in no position to tell an entire industry what to do. Honestly this smacks of 'control' impulses coming from politicians.
If there is going to be a 'better business bureau’ for the koi industry, it needs to come from the industry. It was no different than the KHV problem. It was always an industry problem. And the industry will solve that one with a vaccine and different behavior at the production and wholesale level.
And like people, sometimes businesses need to ‘hit bottom’ before they can rebuild fundamental attitudes and approaches. The koi business is in trouble worldwide. Everyone in the know , knows that. But lessons are being learned and smarter business types will adapt, while mo-mo business types will keep waiting for things to go back to the way they were.

Personally I’d like to see the ZNA chapters start a referral/recommended list of 2-5 dealers in their area . I’d also like to see ZNA chapters adapt a breeder/adviser as well as a sister ZNA chapter in Japan or elsewhere in the world. This kind of network will take care of dealer issues.
JR

[schildkoi]

Juat to play "devils advocate" here, you (JR) state:

Quote: Personally I’d like to see the ZNA chapters start a referral/recommended list of 2-5 dealers in their area . I’d also like to see ZNA chapters adapt a breeder/adviser as well as a sister ZNA chapter in Japan or elsewhere in the world. This kind of network will take care of dealer issues. JR

What criteria would be used for this "referral/recommended" list? Perhaps their QT/health procedures? Oh, what would they be measured against?

I am all for holding dealers/breeders accountible. That accountibility needs to meet a legal standard of "reasonable and ordinary care." The issue arrises as to what that actually is. By having health standards by a national oragnization (hobbyist or professional...doesn't matter), buyers can at least be assured that the dealer has been given the knowledge of what "reasonable" care is. The issue really becomes whether or not they take that knowledge into practice and continue utilizing such.

For the record, I have absolutely no knowledge or involvement with this AKCA proposal. In fact, the first I have heard of it was through this thread. Its been presented that this is something that may be interpreted as being "forced" on the dealer/breeder community. I doubt that this is the case nor the intent. There has been a large demand from the proffesional community to participate in the KHA program. That program was set up for the hobbyist community and I would suspect that this proposal is to meet the requests from those profesionals.

Good or bad (dependent on one's perspective), it would seem to me that ANY program that would increase the knowledge and hopefully practices, would be a positive step for the hobby.

Like the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval," dealers can choose to participate or not I would think?

Oh and for:

Quote: I find the idea of amateurs telling professionals how to run their shops about as reasonable as professionals telling amateurs how to run their clubs and shows.

You mean they don't? The proffesionals sur do interdict into clubs and shows and on many levels and to differing degrees. What the proffesionals should be doing is telling hobbyists how to manage their ponds. Unfortunately, the overwhe;lming majority don't due to their lack of knowledge or do, also with that lack of knowledge. Yes, the more reputable do, but they are by far the minority. Which, once again goes back to where can this majority go to get this knowledge? Anyone else stepping up to the plate?

Just my 2 cents.

Steve

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Its been presented that this is something that may be interpreted as being "forced" on the dealer/breeder community. I doubt that this is the case nor the intent. There has been a large demand from the proffesional community to participate in the KHA program. That program was set up for the hobbyist community and I would suspect that this proposal is to meet the requests from those profesionals. Steve

Steve, I am wondering how many profesionals participate in the KHA program? I know it was opened up to dealers, about 3 years ago for a minimal fee of $100. How many high end dealers don't already have vast knowledge on QT, water quality, KHV testing, scraping and scooping fish? Of all the high end dealers that I know here in California, I can't think of one, who does not constantly teach, koi husbandry to there customers. I can't imagine that the KHA course could teach most of them anything, on the other hand I think the dealers could teach the KHA's a thing or two. What hobbiest deals with as many parasite problems, fish deaths, bacterial infections as any one dealer?


Just a thought but, if said dealer declines to join and follow this new program, do you think this will harm his bussines? I think to a certain point the dealers are being forced to participate. If they don't play then everyone will know. Would you still buy from your favorite dealer, if he does not have a certificate from AKCA proudly displayed in his shop?

Another thought is we will have new dog & cat vets coming out of the woodwork, to join this new venture for the honest Vets this will be a good thing for the hobby, for the ones that just want to make a quick buck, this could knock us back a few steps.

[JasPR]

Once again-- how bizaare! Amateurs should train professionals? Where on earth has professionalism gone?? Professionals should rise out of the ranks of the amateur. Should we have classes designed by AKCA to help dealers identify the varieties or to seek advise on how to choose koi in Japan?? This is getting too weird, Gotta go make some money, JR

[Jeff Speck]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. on the other hand I think the dealers could teach the KHA's a thing or two. What hobbiest deals with as many parasite problems, fish deaths, bacterial infections as any one dealer?

Nancy, you have an excellent point there. When I was in the KHA program, I was particularly wanting more hands-on experience before taking on the responsibility of crisis ponds on behalf of the club. While I felt confident with the course materials and my own ponds, and had helped several friends overcome parasites and ulcers and pH crashes, I hadn’t seen everything and hadn’t seen it all enough to represent the club. I could imagine making some assessment error that reflected upon the club and became an infamous mis-step and damaged relationships. Crap happens, and then comes the gossip. I asked the other local KHA and a local professional if I could be a silent assistant on pond calls, but I don’t think there was any willingness to share the glory there. If it had gone the other way, or if there were dealers willing to bring in KHAs for volunteer work, what an opportunity that would be. As I see it, that is the only weak spot in the KHA program--a lack of hands-on experience in the form of mentoring or apprenticeship-type situations.

I too am not convinced of the value of this certification program. I hope it turns out to be very effective, but I suspect all this energy should continue to be directed toward educating the hobbyist--having a KHA booth at the shows, publicizing the excellent ponding guidebooks that the AKCA produces but doesn‘t sell enough of, urging quarantine and bringing blood testing down to the hobbyist level. Also just my opinion, but KHV cases should not be swept under the rug, but be examined and accurately documented, and then the mistakes and sad pictures made plain as day, because fear is a great educator.

If a hobbyist knows to look for a “certified” dealer, then they already have been around long enough to know which dealers are “reputable.” The reputation system is probably a simpler and more foolproof system than any certification could ever be.

[Fishbreeder]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Once again-- how bizaare! Amateurs should train professionals? Where on earth has professionalism gone?? Professionals should rise out of the ranks of the amateur. Should we have classes designed by AKCA to help dealers identify the varieties or to seek advise on how to choose koi in Japan?? This is getting too weird, Gotta go make some money, JR

Howdy JR,

You kinda hit the nail on the head, again.

Folks like yourself might not wander into too many low end koi dealerships. Maybe you ought to seek some of them out and take a gander.

See if you can find one that knows the difference between a sanke and a showa, let alone be able to tell a fish with KHV symptoms from a perfectly healthy one.

They ain't choosin' no koi in Japan, they take the cheapest fish sold over the net from distributors in China, SE Asia, and elsewhere, I'm surprised nobody in India is exporting koi to the US, yet.

Proffessionalism in koi? Now THAT (unlike many fish sold on E-Bay) is a rarity!!!

There are some out there, folks on this and other boards know who they are, but they are not the discounters, and cheap koi sources the mass market seems to demand.

Brett

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nancy M. Steve, I am wondering how many profesionals participate in the KHA program? I know it was opened up to dealers, about 3 years ago for a minimal fee of $100. How many high end dealers don't already have vast knowledge on QT, water quality, KHV testing, scraping and scooping fish? Of all the high end dealers that I know here in California, I can't think of one, who does not constantly teach, koi husbandry to there customers. I can't imagine that the KHA course could teach most of them anything, on the other hand I think the dealers could teach the KHA's a thing or two. What hobbiest deals with as many parasite problems, fish deaths, bacterial infections as any one dealer? Just a thought but, if said dealer declines to join and follow this new program, do you think this will harm his bussines? I think to a certain point the dealers are being forced to participate. If they don't play then everyone will know. Would you still buy from your favorite dealer, if he does not have a certificate from AKCA proudly displayed in his shop? Another thought is we will have new dog & cat vets coming out of the woodwork, to join this new venture for the honest Vets this will be a good thing for the hobby, for the ones that just want to make a quick buck, this could knock us back a few steps.

Nancy,
For every dealer that you can name with the knowledge as you present, there are at least 5 others without such knowledge. Whether a dealer joins or not is their business decision. As I elluded to, I am not worried about the higher end/reputable dealers. Nor even those that participate in the program and apply such knowledge gained. I would be afriad of those that get "certified" and choose not to use the knowledge but use the certification as a "marketing" tool. We all know how much I "love" ......"marketers."

By the way, for me, a certificate in the window does not mean squat. Its the actual practices employed that get my business so to answer your question, for me it does not matter one way or another. But then again, I am not exactly the uninformed nor naive' buyer either.

Steve