Koi Dealer Best Health Practices Certification Program

[KoiCop]

Thanks, Brett, for reminding us about those dealers that service the replace-em-every-year segment of our hobby. The ones who think that flushable filter falls are cutting edge, that 50 gallons of water per fish is acceptable, that digging 3 feet instead of 2 is wasted effort and that bottom drains are dangerous because they leak.

Yeah, those folks do need education: IMHO, those builders, dealers and hobbyists alike.

But AKCA's mandate is educating hobbyists -- not certification of professionals -- and we shouldn't be involved in putting together a G.E.D program for low-end dealers.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR Once again-- how bizaare! Amateurs should train professionals? Where on earth has professionalism gone?? Professionals should rise out of the ranks of the amateur. Should we have classes designed by AKCA to help dealers identify the varieties or to seek advise on how to choose koi in Japan?? This is getting too weird, Gotta go make some money, JR

Jim,
It is bizarre! This is not to say that many profesionals do in fact train hobbyists but unfortunately many profesionals to not have the knowledge base to do so.

Oh, and the AKCA does help dealers (and hobbyists) identify varieties.....through the ID Poster.

Kohaku....those are those red and white ones, right?

Steve

[KoiCop]

Hello Steve . . .

The word 'professional' has several different meanings.

Loosely speaking, one meaning has to do with being a skilled practitioner, an expert, while another meaning has to do with taking money, a livelihood.

Dealers who qualify on both counts don't need certification -- whereas the ones who only fit the second meaning won't be interested in it.

So what kind of dealer would the certification program appeal to? Beats me, buddy.

[JasPR]

If the koi hobby does ever disappear into the ether, it will be because the commercial interests simply swamp the tiny quirky culture that is, ironically, the koi hobby. It's already happened to a great degree in some countries of the world. And they are left wondering what happened to the hobby, it's seems to have disappeared? And the many dealers are now hurting for customers. They are slow, Japan is slow and everyone is wondering what happened to the hobby? Is it the virus, the economy, the 'been there, done that' reality? the cost of fish? The cost of ponds? the Internet? The new life styles of the game boy generation? Cost of real estate? I suggest they look to the assault they made on the organized koi community and the koi culture within. For without it, there is no koi hobby.

I often warn my frustrated dealer friends in private conversation that they should be careful what they wish for. If all the koi hobbyists that are in the way of business disappeared tomorrow some thing unmeasurable would be lost. That is the carrying of the torch of the koi culture. People come and go in this hobby and each leaves a fading mark. The koi culture however has remained intact for 35 plus years now. And in Japan, for 50 years now. This is something worth preserving. It is so much richer than complusive collecting and profiteering.

I'd give this same advise to my fellow amateur koi keepers. Tend your own hobby culture and forget about the dealer interests. I am starting to see hobbyists that don't quite get the koi culture but who wish to take on projects far and wide that have really nothing to do with the traditions and day to day growing of the koi culture as it is and has been. This is a danger IMHO. It is innocent and well meaning, for sure. But a loss of focus, none the less. JR

[MikeM]

Nancy/Steve: I support the program, not because it will inherently do a lot of good, but because it can do some good. If it catches on (a big "if"), it is a way of educating hobbyists to be alert to whether they are buying from somebody who is sufficiently aware of what is going on to exhibit concern about KHV.

JR: Yeah, but the problem is all those dealers who aren't koi professionals. The bulk of koi sold in this country (and probably most countries) are sold by folks with less knowledge of koi and koi health than the hundreds of hobbyists who frequent the several koi boards. Just think of the koi sold by all those rock-bottom pond builders!

Anything hobbyists can do to help even a little in battling KHV is all for the good. Where the priorities should be to get the most bang for the buck (and energy expended) is a different issue. But it sure would be positive if more of those who breed and sell koi learned something about KHV and began to act responsibly. The lack of awareness, lack of knowledge and misunderstanding among those selling koi for a buck is astounding. Supporting the true professional dealers and breeders is good for the hobby.

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Nancy/Steve: I support the program, not because it will inherently do a lot of good, but because it can do some good. If it catches on (a big "if"), it is a way of educating hobbyists to be alert to whether they are buying from somebody who is sufficiently aware of what is going on to exhibit concern about KHV

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM I think a program could do some good, if it was administered through a professional koi/breeder association. Were there was support amongst the dealers/breeders, I don't believe that the AKCA will be able to control, the dishonest dealers and vets. As others have said some will use this only as a marketing scheme to increase their credibility and sales. JR: Yeah, but the problem is all those dealers who aren't Koi professionals. The bulk of Koi sold in this country (and probably most countries) are sold by folks with less knowledge of Koi and Koi health than the hundreds of hobbyists who frequent the several Koi boards. Just think of the Koi sold by all those rock-bottom pond builders! That is were the dealers and breeders could make the biggest difference, since the R&G, and backyard dealers, and mom & pop shops need to buy there fish from either a US breeder or through a Real Koi dealer wholesale. This is the education needs to start. Anything hobbyists can do to help even a little in battling KHV is all for the good. Where the priorities should be to get the most bang for the buck (and energy expended) is a different issue. But it sure would be positive if more of those who breed and sell Koi learned something about KHV and began to act responsibly. The lack of awareness, lack of knowledge and misunderstanding among those selling Koi for a buck is astounding. Supporting the true professional dealers and breeders is good for the hobby.

Supporting them is one thing dictating to them on how they should run their business is another thing all together. AKCA is a hobbyist organization, not a dealers association. I agree there are a lot of small time dealers popping up everyday; those are the ones that need to be educated. I think that people like, Brett, Brent, Matt, and all the high end dealers already have the most up to date information there is on KHV, as I am sure any of them can identify parasites, and treat accordingly. I am also sure they all can build a proper Koi pond and maintain pristine water quality.

The high end dealers have in the last few years, all changed the way they QT fish, they test for KHV, they have always treated for parasites and any bacterial problems. They are all now required to have permits from APHIS, Japan also is required to get permits from each breeder, prior to shipping. They have all had extra burdens placed on them, by the government and us the hobbyist. We all want the healthiest fish we can receive, we all ask what there QT procedures are, have they KHV tested, many of us ask can I see your test results. I personally think that the high-end dealers here in California have all stepped up to the plate. As far as certifications, I don't care who has one; I will still only buy from dealers that I trust. That piece of paper don't mean squat to me, reputation, honesty and integrity mean the most.

[PapaBear]

The value of the "idea" for a certification program is there, but I don't know how far into the hobby it will reach.
Folks like us deal with people who have already been found to have well established track records, excellent biosecurity, and top notch protocols in place. Even so, we still self-quarantine new acquisitions as an added step of self preservation. The high end dealers/breeders already know their stuff and put it into practice every day, so an "AKCA Certification" would add no value to their business or their customers level of confidence. It would only tell their new customers what the rest of us already know.
On the other hand, there are plenty of backyard breeder/dealers who are in the quick buck speckldiegoi market who have absolutely no concept of "best practices" and neither do their customers. Annual replacement of die offs is their major market share, so going to a lot of trouble to prevent disease is not even on their radar. Everyone reading this probably has better QT setups than some of the Junk Koi marketers out there, and we all know it.
Where I can see the value of this coming into play is with newer entrants into the marketplace. "So you want to become a Koi Dealer"... Well here's what it takes to serve the hobby well... An established set of minimum standards of health assurance for your business and your customers. Compliance would at least act as a solid foundation for best business practices for those who really are serious. A CONSUMER driven set of standards plays to the old adage of "The Customer is ALWAYS Right", and those who want to do business with better customers would find it in their own self interest to join the "Kichi Crowd".
Obviously, the low rent dealers/breeders would still be out there doing what they already do, but their customers have probably never heard of AKCA, ZNA, or even know about nasty things like KHV, etc... The bottom feeders of the Koi market are the Koi worlds equivalent of street vendors hawking knock off Gucci bags and fake Rolex watches, and sadly enough most of their customers are dumb enough to think they're getting a bargain on the real thing...

[JasPR]

uuuhhh, if people who are keeping koi in goldfish ponds have not heard of AKCA or ZNA ,they are not currently in the koi hobby and certainly not part of the koi keeping culture. They are simple people trying to keep koi. This body of folks is often passing through the keeping of koi. It is the equivalent of the 10 gallon tank sold to the 10 year old for a while. It is set up for a time and is destined to be in the next spring garage sale the family has. So every person who purchases a tateshita from Petsmart or a local garden center is not to 'be saved'. The koi culture is not affilated with any Evangelist movement?! So 'saving Petsmart' and the teens that run it, should not be in a koi culture mission statement.

I read these threads about how burnt out the koi hobby is, how poorly staffed ZNA is, how the shows are declining and clubs are folding because members are getting too old and can't do what they used to. I then read threads that talk about how the clubs and associations need to save the wholesale breeder industry from KHV and start programs and rules for dealer behavior and dealer education. Am I the only one who sees a profound lack of focus coupled with a sprinkling of manic desire for the endorphin known as 'self importance '?

really folks, lest walk before we run. And take a moment to ask ourselves, do I really know what the koi culture is? And have I done anything to help support IT? JR

I'll begin. If you want a real koi dealer with knowledge above your own here is the START of a list:

Domestic stock:

1) Brett Rawley- Brett's koi farm
2) Mat McCann - Quality koi/ Nisai koi farm
3) Brady Brandwood - Lotus pond farms
4) Purdin koi farm - Bill McGirk

East Coast ( Japanese stock)

1) again , quality koi
2) Ray Able - Nishikigoi of Niigata
3) Mark Bodycott- USA KOI

West Coast ( Japanese stock)

1) Eastern Nishikigoi
2) Genki koi
3) Champion
4) Pan Intercorp
5) mystic
6) Peters
7) Andy Moo- Andrew's koi International

These are only the one's I KNOW and feel comfortable recommending. There are at least a dozen others that you might like to add.
Each club or chapter should support these individual small businessmen. This will build a critical mass of reliable dealers. Nothing succeeds like success. Vote with your pocket book. JR

[l113892]

(East coast- Japanese stock)

Mark Bodycott- USA KOI
- follows the most current and thorough KHV protocols including drawing blood for serological testing, etc.

[JasPR]

Right, forgot about Mark. I have corrected it. Thanks Mike. JR