Koi Dealer Best Health Practices Certification Program

[MCA]

we also are particular about our wet vendors. but...we do not guarantee the goods sold by a vendor. The transaction is between the buyer and seller.

[Spike Cover]

Spike Cover here. I'm pretty close to the topic(s) so hopefully I can shed some light by bringing a few facts to the discussion. Toward that end, I've penned the document that's attached.

I won't address anyone's objections as:
1. I respect everyone's right to voice their objections and opinions, and
2. I see little or no up-side to forum debates, and
3. I have lots of other things that I need to get done, and
4. I've done a lot of thinking about this and unless I see some arguments that make sense to me, I'm not inclined to change my position. So far I've seen none.

BTW, I suspect I've missed something so I will check back in to see if and how this blurb has affected the thread and if I can add other facts that may be helpful.

All the best,
Spike

PS, And lastly here's a quote from one of my favorite scientists, Andy Goodwin, regarding our BHP program:

You are struggling with an age-old problem. If you make the program perfect, it will be so expensive and cumbersome that nobody can or will do it. If you make it too lax, then everybody will do it, but it won't mean anything. The trick is to address the biggest risks and see what can be done to mitigate them. With many things, it is easy to reduce the risk by 95%, but really hard to reduce it by 99%. Some folks argue that if there are any leaks at all, the whole thing is not worth doing. The more practical amongst us recognize that reducing risk by 95% is a very real benefit.

I love this guy!
__________________________________________________ ___________________
2-18-08 edit:
I came back to look at this. Noticed there were only 8 views of my attachment and thought maybe folks didn't know how to open attachments. Here's a copy

Yo folks,

I read thru this entire thread and believe a few facts may be helpful.

Let me start with the KHA program and get that out of the way:

• The AKCA’s Koi Health Advisor (KHA) program has nothing to do with Project KHV’s Koi Dealer Best Health Practices Certification Program (“BHP”).
• The KHAs will not be, nor has it ever been contemplated that they would be, inspectors or have any other involvement in the BHP program.
• The KHA program has been open to professionals (including koi dealers) for three classes (including the current class).
• Since then, we’ve had something like 5 pros enrolled in the first class, 7 in the second class and 5 in the third class (including those amateurs who turned pro mid-class).
• Only one pro has completed the course and will receive a certificate of completion at the Jacksonville seminar.

Info about Project KHV and, in particular, its relationship to AKCA:

• It is an AKCA sanctioned project.
• The objectives of Project KHV are: The Project will solicit donations that will be used to fund targeted KHV research, development of technology and education directly related to short term control and longer term eradication of koi herpesvirus.
• AKCA pays all overhead costs so donations are 100% available to support the project’s goals.Four of the five members of the Steering Committee are hobbyist members of AKCA associate clubs.
  
  Next let me provide some facts (and a few opinions) about KHV:

• Very few if any koi dealers understand KHV well.
• This is not because they don’t have the desire.
• It is because even scientists are in disagreement about the disease and it’s characteristics. Just look at the controversy between some Israelis and much of the rest of the scientific world with regard to latency.
• On top of that, it takes a lot of time to try to keep up with what’s been studied, what’s been proven, what been disproved and what’s in the works. Running a business likely takes precedence over education when the chips are down. I presume we can all understand this.
• The APHIS hoops that the dealers have to jump thru to import koi and carp have nothing to do with KHV. They relate solely to Spring Viremia of Carp (SVC).
• Koi that are imported from Japan apparently all or mostly come from farms certified free of KHV by some agency of the Japanese government. They use only PCR testing as a basis of this certification and are not required to do antibody testing to achieve certification. I’ve heard a little about how other knowledgeable scientists view Japan’s KHV testing but I’m on the fringes of my knowledge on this topic so I’ll stop here.
• Kovax (Israeli company) has an attenuated live vaccine that is reported on the verge (~next 6 months) of being licensed for use in the U.S. Reported test show very good results in Israel and other countries. I somehow got privy to a lot more on this but am “sworn to silence” – sorry.
• I hope to be able to provide more info on the Kovax vaccine soon. Anyway, knowing what I know wouldn’t give you any advantage except for maybe the “gee whiz” factor on forums.

Some info about KHV education (as there seems to be a consensus that it’s a good thing <g>)

• In about April of last year, Project KHV made a grant to a first rate group of folks (the “Phase 1 Grant” group) to provide education to koi and water garden dealers and hobbyists regarding KHV. That program is still ongoing. An example of what grew out of that grant is Andy Goodwin’s very nice group of presentations that may be viewed here: Home Page (go to the bottom of the main page)
• This Phase 1 Grant project has been explained in at least two articles run in KOI USA and is explained in part here: Multi-regional one-day seminars
• If anyone has a need or desire to have one of the Phase 1 Grant group come and speak at a koi event, please email me privately at scover@pacbell.net or Tim Miller-Morgan, DVM, at tim.miller-morgan@oregonstate.edu
• I did a literature survey over a year ago for Project KHV regarding what was then known, not known, a bit on prevention and control, gave some resources and lots of references. That results of that effort are shown here: http://www.akcaprojectkhv.org/KHVfactsheet-final.pdf (but it’s over a year old). BTW, I can’t imagine a dealer having the time or the inclination to do this. I’m old and ugly but best of all, retired!

Next let me provide some facts about the BHP:

• Everyone anticipated to be involved in the program will do so on a VOLUNTARY basis. This means that if a vet or a dealer doesn’t like the program for any reason, they are not obligated to participate. And they are free to campaign against others participating.
• Project KHV took this on for several major reasons (in no particular order):
  • Because the industry did not do it themselves and there was no indication that it would or even might in the foreseeable future.
  • The veterinary community showed no interest in initiating a program that we thought would be responsive to the need.
  • One of the major goals of Project KHV is to control the spread of KHV and a BHP program seemed (and still does) like a good way to do just that,
  • We (AKCA’s Project KHV) advocate primarily for the hobbyist and the last person to usually be in custody of the fish before a hobbyist gets it is a koi dealer.
• The AKCA is not responsible for the BHP except as follows:
  • Project KHV is sponsoring (funding) it’s preparation, and
  • Managing the project – this was and is purely by default as we could not find a satisfactory group to do the complete project (including management) so we felt it was important enough to take it on in order to “get the job done.”
• The basic program is being written by several “fish friendly” veterinarians and one college professor who teaches about fish. All these folks have koi related experience.
• It will have a legal review by a lawyer who is also a vet and teaches vet law at 17 vet schools.
• There was good market research done prior to starting the BHP program
• 50 koi dealerships (mostly those that would probably be considered “high-end” or the better dealers by the folks who post on Bito) were surveyed. Only a few breeder/dealers were included in that group.
• In the market research process, the anticipated program was described and those surveyed were asked what they liked, didn’t like and would change about the program. The “So what?” is that we asked for and got their input before starting.
• About 75% of the koi dealers surveyed said they were in favor of the program (this means about 25% were not).
• Several of those dealers surveyed said they would be willing to be beta test sites
• Once the program is written, there will be beta testing to see what works and what doesn’t. Adjustments are anticipated. Again, the “So what?” is that we plan to solicit and use the dealers’ input.
• 21 vets that currently include fish in their practice were surveyed.
• All of the vets surveyed liked and supported the program (a lot) and all but one said they would likely participate (that one could not participate due to a personal situation)
• There is a training program planned that will be offered to all vets seeking to become certifying vets. This was requested by the vets. They want to learn and be productive.
• Once the program is deemed ready, it and its materials are planned to be made available, free of charge, to any interested veterinarian who agrees not to certify any dealer that does not meet the minimum requirement of the program.
• The certification will be done by veterinarians who hopefully will be viewed as independent, knowledgeable, competent third parties having the necessary integrity. BTW, I don’t know of any vet that would “sell” a certification. From a purely practical standpoint, it wouldn’t be worth it to loose there license over a relatively few dollars.
• The implemented program is not anticipated to be controlled in any way, except as mentioned in 15 above, by AKCA or Project KHV.
• To put this plan another way, neither AKCA nor Project KHV will police the program. Nor will either vouch for the dealers that the independent vets certify, nor will they vouch for the fish that come from the certified dealers.
• We are considering ways to have the participants themselves police the program. As yet, no conclusions other than “controls are necessary” have been reached.
• Summary: Project KHV intends to aid in the development and promotion of the BHP. But once it’s “ready to roll,” neither AKCA nor Project KHV intends to play any part in it except to be on the sidelines as a cheering section (advocate) for the program.

Lastly a word about breeders:

• We (Project KHV) think that having some self-regulation in the form of a Koi Breeder BHP would be absolutely wonderful.
• However we can’t do it all and decided that since our constituency is the hobbyists and the last one to touch the fish before the hobbyist receives it is the dealer, a DEALER BHP was the best and most direct shot at doing what we intend to do.
• We sincerely hope that someone (anyone) will build on our work, or start from scratch, and generate and promote a Breeder BHP program. That would benefit the Dealers directly and the hobbyists indirectly. It’s all good!

:

[Jeff Speck]

Quick side note, Spike (because I'm named in your summary)--
There were other reasons why I didn't go to Phoenix to complete the KHA course. While I have been learning the mechanics of breeding at the hobbyist level and discussed some possibilities and consequences of becoming a pro with you, I have not turned pro by any means. It is unlikely, although I have had the fantasies...

[Spike Cover]

I came back to look at this thread and noticed there were only 8 views of my attachment and thought maybe folks didn't know how to open attachments. So I went back to my Word file and did a copy and paste in the original post.

Cheers,
Spike

[MikeM]

Spike: The 'view count' is often not accurate. I know that several more than 8 went through it.

[RookieKoiGuy]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Speck Quick side note, Spike (because I'm named in your summary)-- There were other reasons why I didn't go to Phoenix to complete the KHA course. While I have been learning the mechanics of breeding at the hobbyist level and discussed some possibilities and consequences of becoming a pro with you, I have not turned pro by any means. It is unlikely, although I have had the fantasies...

My buddy Jeff is a great guy, but for sure just a hobbyist .
I have had to tell people this before.

[Fishbreeder]

Quote: Originally Posted by JasPR I agree. AKCA is an amateur organization and has no business dictating to professionals. There is enough work for AKCA in the amateur world. JR

Thank You.

Brett

[schildkoi]

OK, I'll play devil's advocate here. Who is "dictating" to the dealers/breeders? They have the right to participate or not in the program.

Now, on the other hand, the government has the right to "dictate" and eventually, if problems persist, I would almost bet on intervention if nothing else is done. On the flip side, the success of the BHP program will be dependent on the participation in the program. Being a fly on the wall (in other words, no direct vested interest), I would suggest once again that all vested parties get together to work through "issues" to find a viable solution and make the program work. Failure to do so "may" result in a government program that in all likelihood would be less effective and more expensive for all parties, especially the end consumer.

Steve

[PapaBear]

I'll join the "Devil's Advocate" parade with a take of my own.

Let me begin with a caveat.
NO program, be it BHP or any other private or governmental is going to clean up dirty dealers or stop the spread of KHV or any other disease. It will only serve to promote the public idea of good health practices at the dealer and hobbyist level.

What are the potential positives across the board?
Those who choose to participate in BHP will be expected to maintain a reasonably efficacious
level of biosecurity. That is a good thing. It will not make the participants or their customers immune from disease, but it will set a bar that is achievable.
Those who choose not to participate, including self-contained breeder/dealers will likely respond in one of two ways.
Guys like Brett, Brady, Matt, Richard, etc... will continue doing business just the way they do and promote not only the quality but the health of their Koi. Healthy fish from healthy farms advertised and delivered on consistently, just like they do now.
The bottom feeders will continue doing business just like they do now. Their customers will continue to replace dead fish with new fish that will die soon enough, be it due to direct contamination from the source or from their own unhealthy ponds.
In the end, the fact that ALL who practice good biosecurity and encourage their customers to do likewise will be further encouraged to advertise that fact to their customers even more due to market pressure. I already have the utmost confidence in certain dealers and breeders because of their outspokenness and up front approach to the business. The fact that some of them will not sign on with the BHP program will not alter that confidence. Their continued commitment to quality and openness will hold my confidence, and the only way they can loose it is to abandon the principles they have established their reputations on in the first place.

[Fishbreeder]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi OK, I'll play devil's advocate here. Who is "dictating" to the dealers/breeders? They have the right to participate or not in the program. Now, on the other hand, the government has the right to "dictate" and eventually, if problems persist, I would almost bet on intervention if nothing else is done. On the flip side, the success of the BHP program will be dependent on the participation in the program. Being a fly on the wall (in other words, no direct vested interest), I would suggest once again that all vested parties get together to work through "issues" to find a viable solution and make the program work. Failure to do so "may" result in a government program that in all likelihood would be less effective and more expensive for all parties, especially the end consumer. Steve

Howdy Steve,

I am under so many "government programs" now I don;t see how another will make a difference. I understdn the gooberment is going to have thier nasty fingers in my pie. I got no choice. What I've problems with is that now the AKCA is in a huge power grab that will result in things as bad or far worse than the gooberment's meddling.

Lets me see now....BHP say we all gotta buy Isreali vaccine. BHP says we all gotta buy a particular brand of disinfectant. BHP says we gotta all do this, that and the other thing. When that happens, it is a slippery slope indeed. It is power that is at stake, the power of control over the trade in koi. No hobby organization should have such power (other than the traditional means such as boycott).

How many CARREER fish culturists are on the BHP board? How about CARREER fish dealers? One thing to get a buncha well educated folks together, another to get a buncha well experienced folks. For me, it takes both. No vet is going to understand the day to day grind of a fish farm or fish shop like the person that lives it does. Without the "man in the tenches", humint, if you will, the program will be rife with holes and pitfalls.

Yep, voluntary, but do not participate and you are going to be an outcast.

What happens when (and it will be "when" and not "if") KHV fish are sold from a BHP certified facility?

And its not the US gooberment we should be concerned with. It is the FAO that can and possibly will, stop the trade in koi. Nothing to do with folks getting cheated out of thier money or saddened by the loss of some pets. Everything to do with food sources for Third World people that depend on carp production for thier very survival, not for thier entertainment. Food for billions or expensive pets for a few rich folks in the Western World. Which do you beleive the FAO will choose?

I do beleive we need to do something. But regulating the koi trade is a bit much for a hobby group to undertake. OTOH, there is the power of the written word. AKCA through KoiUSA does indeed have the power to shed light into the darkness. They refuse to use it in the name of political correctness and vested interests. EDUCATE your members. EXPOSE charlatans. Use the power already at your disposal.

I do beleive we need a way to ferret out the charlatans from the "real" thing. It is as much an ethical as a biological issue. Unethical purveyors of koi need to be exposed as such, no matter how big an ad they buy.

I've other ideas as to how such an august group as has been compiled by the BHP program could be put to effective use without trampling on the folks who are in business. But for another post.

I have tremendous respect for the AKCA, and am thankfull for thier years and years of service to the koi collecting community, but I fear this thing (BHP) might change all that, and not for the better.

Brett