What parameters should be used to decide what koi should be in a grow out contest?

[jnorth]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee prove you can pick the sex of a koi by its shape...body? fins? luster? what?(ogons used)

Speaking of that I hope everyone makes their best guess on that in the current grow-out (it's on the form).

[Sangreaal]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth I like that idea but the problem is the price difference between the same quality grade import vs domestic. To get the same price the import koi would likely be of a lesser quality because you have to factor in the cost of shipping from Japan. Not saying it can't be done but the dealer putting up the koi for the contest would have to either take a hit on the imports or make a real nice profit off the domestics.

Ummm...it has been my understanding that domestic koi actually cost more to produce than their Japanese counterparts of the same quality, and as a result cost more to the end buyer if bought from a dealer and not straight from the breeder. So maybe have two sources instead of one for that kind of contest....

I like the idea, and of course you know what breeder I'd like to have fish from to go toe to toe vs imported Japanese stock....

[luke frisbee]

The Dealer would have to not show his cards when ordering the "tategoi"..he could say they were for a grow out contest, that way slightly better koi could be procured, and the breeder wouldn't/couldn't get pissy about his koi being exposed in a public grow out.

[PapaBear]

I do like the general notion of your idea Luke, but there is still the "wild card" of individual husbandry in this scenario. That takes a good bit of the wind out of a true "head to head" from the Japan vs. domestic angle. For a head to head of Domestic vs. Japanese to have real value it would require a single caretaker for all entrants Koi. That would be the only way to measure the comparative qualities of each on an equal footing. If the best eye picked 3 Japanese Koi of top quality and practiced mediocre husbandry he/she would no doubt lose out to a lesser eye with excellent husbandry.
For a competition amongst Koi Kichi the husbandry is just as important as the selection skill, so the Koi source is only 50% of the equation at best.

I do think it would be serious fun to have Sanke from 3 or 4 top domestic breeders in a head to head with 3 or 4 respected Japanese breeders. All of them in a single pond would be the only way to measure the breeders art honestly though. No small trick to pull off, and hard to get heavy participation from potential purchasers. Lets face it. A true contest like that would take 3-4 years to complete...

[luke frisbee]

papa
Your logic is extremely flawed.
if all the koi were kept in one big beautiful mud pond then that would ONLY tell us what breeder's koi grew best in that Particular mud pond, That particular year.
By spreading the koi througout the US many of the breeders koi would be esposed to many different conditions.
You are correct in questioning how well one koi would perform in one keepers care. but this contest , with these parameters, would give a Fairer assessment of what each breeders koi would do in the ponds of the "better" US hobbyisits.
And besides we would all have to tell what we kept them in and how we kept and fed them so the under acheivers could be proven to be the result of subpar care...compared to me.

[Gallagher]

There are a few interesting ideas going on here, however the idea that you're actually going to learn anything from someone else’s choices is, in itself flawed. Luke you will probably learn something about the picks in your pond, but you'll have no real experience or understanding of how they would fare in mine. When it comes to my pond, the setup, the climatic influence of my geographic location, not to mention the water differences are so dissimilar that the amount of useful information you could gain is limited, and you could never know how your picks would do in my pond, as I could never know the same with respect to my picks in your pond.
Furthermore the reason people get into grow out contests is the hope that by some freakish breeder oversight they may luck out and snatch a true show fish for a bargain price.
The chances of that happening are about as good as the chance that out of 175 fish the any breeder would throw in a few ringers in the hopes of creating customers.
So why would breeders offer their fish, to say, a board such as this, in a grow out contest? I truly think that maybe just maybe, if it was thought, that their Koi were going to keepers, with above avg husbandry skills, across a vast land with differing conditions like the US, they might get some real and useful information about the way their product performs here. This however could only be accomplished if the grade of fish were all very similar, the information readily accessible.
So what is my point, oh yeh, I don’t think you’re ever going to get breeders to put up their top tosai for a grow out contest.

[koiczar]

Gallagher

Your thoughts are very accurate and well put. No breeder is going to risk sending his best tosai ANYWHERE except his own mud ponds next year. He, like all other people that sell anything are in it to make money. This is not the way to do it! Good post!!

Mike

[luke frisbee]

I am very sorry. I did not intend to state that a breeder should send their "best tosai"..
I was a fool for stating that...
please show me where I did.

[Beniguy]

I'm into this to learn. Luck of the draw gave our picks. I'll not profess to be an expert, but I am happy that the koi that I saw potential in are mine to grow out.
Before and after pics, most improved, best growth, deepest shiro... anything is possible.
I'll do the form thing after I get the koi home.
Ed

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by jnorth I like that idea but the problem is the price difference between the same quality grade import vs domestic. To get the same price the import koi would likely be of a lesser quality because you have to factor in the cost of shipping from Japan. Not saying it can't be done but the dealer putting up the koi for the contest would have to either take a hit on the imports or make a real nice profit off the domestics.

Domestics are more expensive.