Over Feeding ?

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 Thank's for all the Post so far . As far as current in the QT (Show Tank) . Mine has this . I have the water return from the filter to the tank at a angle that cause's almost a vortex which inturn helps push solids to the center of the tank where the piping for the filter sits . I can & do change the angle from time to time so they don't become salmon . Just like a child will go through a "Fat Stage" and then come out of it , I'm hoping this is all that could happen . Or am I changing the Koi's future (Body , Finishing Rate , Etc.) by almost force feeding .

Troy,
MCA is hitting on some issues for you to consider. Can you overfeed tosai? Yes, you can. Although koi will stop eating when they are "full" so to speak, in properly developing a koi, you want calorie intake to matach calories used (plus or minus within tolerances). Like in humans, some will eat more than others and all will eat more than they should if that food is available. In comapring to the wild, one major difference (as MCA points out) is that in the wild, the carp uses many calories foraging for food, They also have an almost unlimited area to swim in (let alone currents) that helps use up the calorie intake while developing is muscoskelital structure. Shallow, low current ponds/tanks coupled with too much food, can lead to poor body confirmation, especially if done for extending perods during the koi's developement. Now, done on the short term? Less likely to have negative long term effects.

Steve

[koibooi]

My tropical region is sunny South Africa where my pond never goes below 17C. My 30 ton pond is 2.4 meters deep so I have great vertical swimming exercise. I have three pumps (18K liters, 15K liters & 13K liters) totalling 46K liters. At night a 8K liter protien skimmer also kicks in. Six under water returns and two air domes pushing 180 liters of air per minute cause enough current to give them a good workout. I feed a good protien food and have phenominal growth and never bother with a wheat germ feed. Another myth that I have busted according to the traditionalists.

[KoiCop]

Hello koibooi . . .

Sounds like you've a top-notch pond running. Congrats!

I wonder how long you've been up and running? And how long you've been following that feeding regimen? How big are your biggest fish -- and how old are they?

I ask because the health problems which arise from your Endless Summer (or Hiroshima style) approach aren't the early onset type. They're the ones which cause 6 -8 year old GC's to drop dead due to massive fat accumulation stressing their internal organs, etc.

I'm afraid only time will tell whether you've 'busted' any myths -- or whether they're just biding their time. To find out, keep 'em warm and keep 'em stuffed then check back with us in 5 - 10 years, will you please?

Best wishes,

[koibooi]

Hi Don - Current pond going on its 4th year now. I have 3 koi that is in the 85 cm range that I grew on from about 55cm, mostly bought as 3 year olds. On averave the others are 70 - 78cm mostly bought as 2 year olds. Own a few GC trophys and hope to get some with my next two generations when they hit the 80cm range.

The quality of the hi and sumi still excellent and improving on some of the big fish. GC sanke only starting to finish now so hopefully still a few good year left in them. Will keep you posted during the next few years.

I am just not a traditionalist when it comes to koi keeping. Many other rules also not adhered to. Suppose every person follow his own husbandry regime.

[KoiCop]

Very impressive statistics, koibooi: You're obviously no newbie.

I'm guessing, then, that you probably don't want the list of links I was putting together for you, links explaining in detail that koi are a 4 season fish (with corresponding winter feeding protocols) and the dangers of an Endless Summer regimen?

[kingkong]

Fish engineered to produce extra amounts of a protein AgRP, increases appetite and slows metabolism. This mutant gene can cause fish obesity.

[HEADACHE6]

I agree that Koi are a 4 season fish . All my older/larger koi go through all 4 seasons .

But from what has been stated so far , theres no long term/side effects in over feeding "YOUNG" koi to help get a jump in growth (As long as water quality isn't effected) ?

[koiczar]

Quote: Originally Posted by HEADACHE6 I agree that Koi are a 4 season fish . All my older/larger koi go through all 4 seasons . But from what has been stated so far , theres no long term/side effects in over feeding "YOUNG" koi to help get a jump in growth (As long as water quality isn't effected) ?

If taking a page out of a Japanese Breeder's routine, as far as tosai go, they are kept indoors, heated and have FLOW THROUGH systems. If you can manage your water quality that well, then I would have to say, over a single winter period, go ahead and feed'em. BTW, are we talking really high quality tosai or are you just experimenting with some average stock that you simply want to see what will happen?

Don (koicop) has some very thought provoking info in his post earlier. The fish that breeders push the limits with, don't seem to last very long. It also seems that they only do this for the first couple years to maximize size regardless of the outcome down the road. After all, why should they care, you bought it, you own it, right? I really think there's a fine line within all of this that we should consider before WE cross it!

Mike

[MikeM]

I would not be concerned at all about tosai. Among the better koi bred in Japan, most have 'warm' water over winter and are fed well. The idea of long term health problems due to being coddled over the first winter makes no sense to me. We would have few koi surviving to 6 years if so.

Maybe the concern increases with nisai. It is not unusual for coddled nisai in Japan to be over 55cm by the time they are returned to the mud for a third season... and some can have real bulk. I tend to think that 'normal' care after harvest as sansai should produce a koi fully able to live a full life span. In the first two years the growth hormones are gunning the engine. After the third season in the mud, the fish is mature and long term fat deposits etc. would seem possible. But, I'm not aware of any methodical study of the matter.

[KoiCop]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but my remarks were addressed to koibooi, who stated "my pond never goes below 17C" -- and not to Troy's question about heating tosai their first winter.

I'm sorry if it seemed otherwise.