How about this Shiro?

[PapaBear]

As a fellow "not playing with the big boys" kinda guy I can identify
The Shiro and Sumi have a nice quality to them, and the sumi may well have a lot of life left in it for you to enjoy, but I have to agree with Mike on the body. The heavy load of eggs gives her a bottle-neck appearance at he Tail Tube. Looking at the head/shoulder area and the odome only I can imagine this as a slender fish when she's not preggers. As it is she looks a bit like a size 2 fashion model carrying twins. Still purty, but not at her best.

[farne230]

I am interested in the comment about the back 1/3 is thin. What does this mean other then possible egg generation has begun, or needs to beef up over the summer, I really do not know- I am concerned if this should alert a heath concern-please respond-in general this question is not necessarily about this shiro.
Bob

[mitten]

Mr. Bob-

Start with genetics, meaning a fish with quality attributes and the potential to exemplify the variety.

Add excellent keeping in great pond water with volume, depth, circulation and abundant, various food sources.

Fat, powerful tails, osutzu (?); streamlined, fluid, bulky bodies; entrancing, vibrant skin color and depth; are the intended results.

Did I mention "start with genetics"?

This fish of Jimbo's (no profile, buddy) looks well kept.

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by farne230 I am interested in the comment about the back 1/3 is thin. What does this mean other then possible egg generation has begun, or needs to beef up over the summer, I really do not know- I am concerned if this should alert a heath concern-please respond-in general this question is not necessarily about this shiro. Bob

I do not think that the back area is thin it is more so that the rest is fat as well as possibly carrying a lot of eggs . If the fish had a long dormancy and was not fed might help but some are just pigs that like to eat a lot . I have one and even in the mud pond it gets bulkier . If one keeps fish of diffrent sizes there is no solution other than getting rid of it and if you want slimmer fish keep males . Now if this fish was 32in it would probably look nice .
Regards
Eugene

[MikeM]

Many koi have a lack of proportion along the full length of the fish. Shiro Utsuri as a variety have historically been more prone to have this lesser conformation. It is more than a temporary egg-laden state. It improves following a spawning, but the lack of proportion remains... just not as accentuated. The better Shiros of today are less likely to have the issue, although it remains rare for a Shiro to have the body conformation of a high quality Kohaku. The Culpepper and Height Shiros that were being discussed in another thread exemplify the good body conformation possible on Shiros.

Regarding health concerns, I have limited personal experience. Based on that limited experience, I believe egg impaction issues are more significant. That is why I cautioned to be watchful. The best prevention is for the fish to lose the eggs... fasting, spawning or stripping are the means I am aware of. With such fish the first signs of internal egg impaction infection are not noticeable when the fish are viewed in the pond. They continue to eat and behave normally. There may be a notable increase in girth over a relative few days that you just happen to notice one day at feeding time. By the time pinkishish discoloration is noticed on the abdomen, an infection is fairly well progressed. Reddish discoloration is virtually hopeless. What folks seem to first notice is that the fish is not as eager to eat as normal. Then the fish is not moving about as much. After waiting a day or two, the keeper bowls the fish to check it out and sees the discoloration on the underside of the abdomen. The infection has filled the abdominal cavity and the fish is very likely lost within another 48 hours. ...just my observation based on a sad personal experience and the tales told me by others.

I am not suggesting that koi with such conformation go this path. Just that I think they are more prone to do so. Perhaps it is that the conformation camouflages the condition until it is too late to have much hope.

[gspotmc]

Mike,
I had that experience with my avatar. She just died. I was kinda hoping that I spawned her.
Michael

[gspotmc]

I have 2 shiro's in my pond. One from Omosako and one from Ogata. The omosako is over 30 in is very well proportioned and the Ogata is fat and is around 27 in. I think genetics play a big role as to how a fish will finish. I'm making side by side comparison of the two right now because they come from different breeders.

[111whalen]

Michael,
Sorry to hear you lost your Shiro-very nice fish. Was it due to feeding when a preggo? Anything else it could be?

[gspotmc]

Quote: Originally Posted by 111whalen Michael, Sorry to hear you lost your Shiro-very nice fish. Was it due to feeding when a preggo? Anything else it could be?

Mark,
the avatar, you might have seen her at Eastern 2004. I showed her at Koi Kichi and 2005 Gardena. 4 months after the show in Gardena she passed. too much egg I opened her up just to find 2 to 3 gallons of egg.
Michael

[dick benbow]

before the appearance of omosako, many shiro breeders had fish that developed what i call double stomach easily and were prone to be stubby and obese. Since that time the current breeders have gotten away from those genetics and it's made a nice difference.
Some of the early showas that were developed from this match and kohaku also tended to develop the same way. Sure glad we got past that certainty into a better body shape.