Buying fish for show, then returning it to the dealer if it doesnt win.....

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by koiczar This aspect of the hobby happens all the time, especially in Japan. Fish are kept at the breeder's or dealer's facility, and then brought to the show on behalf of the owner. The only difference here is that the fish is OWNED by the hobbyist. They also pay for the service, so no collusion there (usually). These fish don't usually touch the hobbyist's pond, ever. What Antonio is stating is just plain "game playing" with the rules of the show. I don't know about blaming the hobbyist, it's a good deal for them, but the dealer and his fish should be banned from shows as this goes against the grain of the "hobby" and the amateur show, as these fish are not "owned" by amateurs until after the event or judging is over. This is exactly the type of thing that gets JR's hackles up. Surprised we haven't heard from him yet on this issue? Mike

Yeah, what he said. It isn't me.....is it?

[aquitori]

The kind of arrangement is if the fish wins at a show, then the hobbyist has the option to buy. Now, if the fish loses then the hobbyist has no obligation to buy the fish.

[Eugeneg]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori The kind of arrangement is if the fish wins at a show, then the hobbyist has the option to buy. Now, if the fish loses then the hobbyist has no obligation to buy the fish.

Only a stupid dealer would do that ,as people can purchase a koi before the show and enter it . Or they can purchase and have it shipped to the show without even seeing it other than a photo . This is good for dealers and the number of fish entered in a show .
So good for the hobby . THis way we all see a lot more good fish . On the other hand I feel sorry for the person that has raised and conditioned a fish for years and comes in second best to someone with deep pockets .
Regards
Eugene

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori The kind of arrangement is if the fish wins at a show, then the hobbyist has the option to buy. Now, if the fish loses then the hobbyist has no obligation to buy the fish.

So, if the fish loses then it still belongs to the dealer. What ever happened to the rule that no dealers can show Koi? Isn't this breaking that rule and should that dealer be exposed?

[Jimbo]

That is in conflict with the rules of any show I've read the rules of in the U.S. Rules are not meant to be broken. Fair play should be more important than stroking some ones ego.

[KoiCop]

Russ and Jim . . .

I agree.

Hopefully the SDKC will investigate -- since, if true, they're the ones who got punked.

[koiczar]

Hey all

I just re-read Antonio's opening post. It says if the hobbyist BUYS the koi and it doesn't win, the dealer will take it back

Then Don's post #3 says the fish ISN'T purchased by a hobbyist FIRST and THEN PUT INTO THE SHOW. Which is the correct statement concerning this.

As I stated earlier, if the fish isn't actually purchased by the hobbyist BEFORE entering into the show, it is technically still owned by THE DEALER. Therefore, the fish should be disqualified and stripped of any title and awards that went with it. That would take care of the situation as far as the dealer goes, and hopefully, would send a message to other hobbyists that this kind of stuff will not be condoned. The new NorCal ZNA Bylaws have stiff penalties associated with this type of behavior if/when discovered!

Mike

[CarolinaGirl]

I agree with Mike. Two different circumstances were presented. If the sale is contingent on the fish winning, then at the time of the show the fish technically belongs to the dealer.....a HUGE violation of most show rules. If the money has changed hands and the fish belongs to the hobbiest.....and then the hobbiest loses and wants a refund, it is unethical, but probably not against the rules. It is really not that much different that dealers bringing in ringers for a customer and then taking them back to their facility after the show. After all, what a person does with his fish after the show is his own business. If he wants to get a refund on it....or sell it back to the dealer, or give it away.....whatever. Still seems pretty shady though.

[MCA]

At our show the person who is exhibiting the fish has to sign a document saying they are the owner of the fish. Someone else can not represent you at registration/benching. So a dealer may have delivered your fish to your show tank....but you as the owner have to step up and register it and be there for benching. Hard to prove someone lied when they said they are the owner.

As to who/where raised the fish.....that is not a topic for qualification or disqualition in any routine koi show. Koi shows,,,,just like dog/cat/horse shows....are all about how well the animal looks on the day. Who breed it, who raised it, or even you brought it to the show does not matter.

If you want who raised a koi to matter, do a special grow out competition within your own club using koi from the same spawn. They you might be able to compare husbandry skills...maybe.

But lets keep husbandry skills out of koi shows. The winners should be the best looking fish....not based on how long they have been in a particular pond.

[farne230]

The facts seam simple to me, if a koi was signed in under a private owners name and the show rules are specific that recognized koi dealers are not allowed to show koi at this show, then an investigation by the show directors is warranted if requested. Once this matter has been investigated and ruled on by the governing show body then I am sure this practice, if true, will come to an end. This is my two cents.

My personnel preference may be that I would not support this practice in competition, but this would be a decision of the majority.
Good topic.
Bob