Buying fish for show, then returning it to the dealer if it doesnt win.....

[JasPR]

I haven't said much about this for a couple of reasons. It is an old ploy, every decade some ambitious dealer thinks up and suspects it is a new wrinkle no one has thought of yet ( shite for brains). And because good koi are so expensive it allows for hobbyists who are 'swimming way out of their depth' financially, some kind of guarantee for their home equity loan money. In fact when I saw it in it's last version ( by another 'cute' dealer) the hobbyist, also a sleeze, bought the fish, won best of size 5 and then returned it to the dealer ( a state away) and said it won nothing and that the fish that won best of size was actually one of HIS fish. The dealer cried foul and actually tried to plead his case to the club with picture in hand of the fish he sold ?! Made me smile.

Things like this always demand rules to be put in place after the fact. People's sense of fairness and outrage always have emotions demanding more rules.
But like real life, rules really do nothing for/to those determined to cheat or game the system. There is no 'koi jail' or 'being fired or paying of fines'. And low lifes only repond to that kind of penalty, if they are real. What we are talking about here is a lack of morality and no sense of sportmanship or fair play. And there is a limit as to what can be done about that. Public scorne is about the only thing that might work and is remotely realistic.
Banning people for life or kicking people out of clubs is a serious thing as it always comes along with bad feelings and maybe a closing of ranks that splits and destroys clubs. Dealers love to do this in clubs. They then gain control of a core group of 'protestors' who form their own club to do their own thing under their own rules. A club formed soley around that one event with rules and bylaws that are warped by the 'founding bad blood'. It is the story/history of the hobby and something to try and avoid. In the end, dealers and immoral club members will alway try and bend the rules. What we need to enforce is breaking of existing rules and the tolerance and mangement of bending rules- not because it is right but because it is realistic. I hate it, but I pray we have the strength to change those things we can change and accept those things we can not change.
ZNA recommends that the wording voted on a half dozen years ago now, be included in the sign up registration form for all exhibitors. If that is broken as a signed contract by the exhibitor, you now have written/signed evidence and recourse. 'After the fact' reaction NEVER words and is a slippery slope. JR

[gspotmc]

If my dealer would let me return a fish that didn't win in a show. I would be very happy. He gets stuck with A FISH that was previously owned and may or may not be able to sell for the same price. And I would get a REPLACEMENT that might actually win top awards in another show. I don't know how ethical and correct that situation is.

[nezueagle]

The Koi Club of San Diego is investigating this potential violation of our show rules and I will recommend that the KCSD Board take appropriate action to discourage similar offenses in the future.

The KCSD Entrant Requirements state (in part):

"This is a hobbyist only show. All koi entered must be owned by and accompanied by the registered entrant. The actual owner of the koi must be present to sign the official entry form."

Whenever there are rules, there are always unscrupulous people who will try to bend or break them. It is our purpose, as much as is possible, to put on a fair show for hobbyists, and police our show to the best of our ability. We invite scrutiny of our show and will make public what we legally can, to encourage other clubs and shows to be proactive in dealing with similar problems.

Bill Thompson, President
Koi Club of San Diego

[aquitori]

Maybe the Gardena Show should pay attention to the matter too.

[koiczar]

Actually, I think EVERY show should pay closer attention to the matter!

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by nezueagle The Koi Club of San Diego is investigating this potential violation of our show rules and I will recommend that the KCSD Board take appropriate action to discourage similar offenses in the future. Bill Thompson, President Koi Club of San Diego

Thank you for reassuring the board that your club is investigating potential violations. I'd expect nothing less from a professional organization like the KCSD.

Best wishes,

[luke frisbee]

Ok I "buy" the koi for a buck, and agree to give the dealer a "bonus" if it wins, and return and get half my money back.....
that is just as moral as when people actually buy a fish just before a show hoping to "buy" the five dollar trophy.
... Show me how this is any more hurtful than the accepted practice of purchasing koi from dealers/breeders just before the show and having the dealer bring it to the show, yet the hobbyist claims it as "theirs", and shows it.

now make the rule..."ll koi entered must have been kept in the hobbyists pond, and come from the hobbyist's home directly to the show."

[KoiCop]

This thread, Luke, is about the ethical differences between buying a koi vs. taking it for a conditional test drive at the local koi show -- without having committed to buying it.

You're arguing apples to oranges.

[MikeM]

Hmmmm.... I think Luke is arguing that there is no material difference morally.

Luke: I think we discussed the role of morality on another board a few months ago, albeit in a different context. Here is a corollary: Rules have nothing to do with morality. Rules are about control and goals. Moral justifications are merely means of obtaining compliance when self-interest is not effective. You are confusing the discussion.

Don: Yep. Apples and oranges.

[Auntiesue]

Something just smells funny with this situation. I agree with JR...this is a moral issue, but the club has rules and the rules should be enforced whenever possible to ensure the show continues to have integrety if the club is promoting it's show as a true amature show. Transparency within the show is also important so even if this ends up being technically abiding by the rules, it sure is stretching them and the appearance of someting like this happening will surely dampen teh spirits of others who may wish to enter.

Luke, while I have no problem with a dealer bringing in a fish that I have purchased for a show and then I take the fish home after the show, our club's show has put into place a 3 month rule. The owner must have the fish in their personal care at least 3 months prior to the show. We would like to have that time frame longer, but because of our winters, we just can't extend it "yet". But our club is focusing on husbandry skills, not just a beauty contest, although that is important as well.