Buying fish for show, then returning it to the dealer if it doesnt win.....

[acergsmd]

That is why it is at the dealers place. Maybe the hobbiest decided if he sold the fish he coud do more improvements to his pond. To me this sounds like to many maybees. Hopeful it is a misunderstanding of the rules and maybe that is why the Koi dealer did this.
One must be hopeful that this a mistake. P.S. I do not no anyone or the fish you guys are talking about.

[Seefdro Tvneik]

Ok people I get the morals of the situation and I hope you people can come up with a friendly way to resovle the issue .........BUT I doubt it........Since I live here in Michigan and we really don't have any real koi shows around here I was wondering if there is a show that everyone is welcomed including dealers to show their koi.......A show just about the koi and nothiong else....does it exist?

Good luck betrayed koi people.....

[CarolinaGirl]

Sue, I like the rule your club has imposed. I would like to see all shows at least have a hobbiest class with great trophies, only for people who have had their koi in their own personal ponds for at least 6 months.

[Fishbreeder]

Quote: Originally Posted by Seefdro Tvneik Ok people I get the morals of the situation and I hope you people can come up with a friendly way to resovle the issue .........BUT I doubt it........Since I live here in Michigan and we really don't have any real koi shows around here I was wondering if there is a show that everyone is welcomed including dealers to show their koi.......A show just about the koi and nothiong else....does it exist? Good luck betrayed koi people.....

There are "open" koi shows allowing dealers and breeders to compete with hobbiests. However only an idiot would compete and win against thier customers.

Open shows are less about the koi and more about making money than a hobby show, which is more about the koi and less about the money.

You put profit motive into a hobby show and you destroy the credibility, sense of fair play, and genuine competition in favor of making sales, picking up customers, playing games, making points, etc.

There are plenty of legitimate opportunities to make money as a dealer at a hobby show, one of them is not by "loaning out a ringer and selling it only if it wins." That is reprehensible.

I used to work fishing tournaments. Big money in that, big, big money, sometimes a quarter million dollar first place prize. Not a hobby tournament, but a mix of hobbiests and pros. You want to see cheating, reprehensible acts, and downright dishonesty in the name of money, go there.

I've seen....fish caught elsewhere and "staked out" to be picked up by a fisherman during the tournament. Well, debunked that one, not by the lie detector, but by the stomach contents of the staked out fish, bait fish that did not live in that lake.

I saw....an unscrupulous pro use a piano wire to stick inside the vent of a large, gravid fenale bass. The wire broke open the ovaries and allowed the eggs to gain water, adding about a half pound to the fish. Bloody vent and subsequent dissection took care of that.

Both those were prosecuted for fraud.

Do you want to see such as that at a koi show????

Let the dealers enter and run the show.

Brett

[MikeM]

I have no disagreement with a rule that requires that a koi be owned, not borrowed/conditionally sold. But, how is there a moral difference between what supposedly occurred and a hobbyist paying a high price for a koi because a dealer says it is one of the best to be found in the country and if not a shoo-in for GC at the show, certainly Reserve GC. The fish does not place. The hobbyist complains and the dealer takes it back with a full refund. Folks are seeing something immoral in the 'conditional sale' scenario, but in the latter I think you would praise the integrity of the dealer. ...Which is why I say morality has nothing to do with it. It is a question of control and goals. It's not good for show participation to have 'conditional sale' entries. Therefore, it should be prohibited.

[KoiCop]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM It's not good for show participation to have 'conditional sale' entries. Therefore, it should be prohibited.

It was in San Diego: "This is a hobbyist only show. All koi entered must be owned by and accompanied by the registered entrant. The actual owner of the koi must be present to sign the official entry form."

And it is in Gardena: "All koi entered must be owned by an amateur hobbyist. Owners need not be present as long as their signed release form accompanies the representative/dealer entering the koi. Dealer owned koi not allowed!"

Unfortunately, enforcement of those 'contracts' after the fact cannot make up for the lack of ethics displayed aforehand.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeM Hmmmm.... I think Luke is arguing that there is no material difference morally. Luke: I think we discussed the role of morality on another board a few months ago, albeit in a different context. Here is a corollary: Rules have nothing to do with morality. Rules are about control and goals. Moral justifications are merely means of obtaining compliance when self-interest is not effective. You are confusing the discussion. Don: Yep. Apples and oranges.

So the rules are not based on morals....and I have always said that...the rules are based on the fancies of the dealers and breeders...the more fish they can sell as being able to win the trophy the better for them....What I'd give to have all the breeders have theri favorite wll-heeled hobbyist bring a koi to a show with just such an arrangement...
the show would be a bigger success as the numbe rof hogh quality koi would increase...right?
I mean IF it is an advantage for dealers/breeders to do it that way?
No? yeah NO.
No it ain't gonna benefit dealers so the other rule works better for the people that sell these finished koi. Force Hobbyists to buy a koi and with the understanding that it "could" win.

I've always had a problem with the beast referred to as a koishow. The GOAL of having people show koi is never stated, and when it is the rules are not formed so as to facilitate the acheivement of the GOAL.


So I have NO problem, and find it refreshing, that there is ONE dealer that will guarantee their merchandise. And he should be commended.
Until the rules of a koi show are based in performance objectives or morality...which they are not at this time.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Auntiesue Something just smells funny with this situation. I agree with JR...this is a moral issue, but the club has rules and the rules should be enforced whenever possible to ensure the show continues to have integrety if the club is promoting it's show as a true amature show. Transparency within the show is also important so even if this ends up being technically abiding by the rules, it sure is stretching them and the appearance of someting like this happening will surely dampen teh spirits of others who may wish to enter. Luke, while I have no problem with a dealer bringing in a fish that I have purchased for a show and then I take the fish home after the show, our club's show has put into place a 3 month rule. The owner must have the fish in their personal care at least 3 months prior to the show. We would like to have that time frame longer, but because of our winters, we just can't extend it "yet". But our club is focusing on husbandry skills, not just a beauty contest, although that is important as well.

AuntieSue,
you know I love your club's decision, and conviction....I bet your club isn't run by dealers or hobbyists controlled by dealers...and the hobbyists can think for themselves as well...
rare indeed, as humans do not usually think.
I'd be happy if the fish enetered had to come form a pond owned by the person that is entering them in the show...No time constraint...I wouldn't care if they dropped it in there yesterday and pulled it out today and brought it to a show.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee OK the way this started was FINE with me.. "Buy" a fish and take it to a show..if it doesn't win the dealer takes it back and gives the "Hobbyist" the money back. But if the koi went back because ti did not win GC the dealer might be one shrewd man...he More than likely figured if it didn't get GC it would get an award that would double the value of the koi. And the reason for this is that 99% of the hobbyists do not have confidence in what is a good koi is. A dealer can tell a hobbyist all day long how special a koi is, but the real proof is NOT if the Hobbyist likes it, but that the judges award it something.... If I was a dealer i would do this every chance I got....it'll be interesting how this is dealt with IF it is true.... The Hobbyist(s) was played for the fool... of the two who do you think has the tighter sphincter tonight? But please look at the issue. the Hobbyist "Bought" the koi to win the show...MANY Dealers sell fish stating that the koi being bought will win. ONLY ONE DOES...i actually see the dealer that sells a koi with the guarantee that if it does not win he will take it back as more ethical than other dealers/breeders.

OK MikeM,
You agree with my post from page 2
a Dealer that guarantees a trophy, and will take the koi back if it does not deliver is of a higher moral fiber than those that tell the hobbyist if he buys his High-quality koi it should win provided the judges aren't blind, or someone doesn't buy a better koi.....
I've even seen koi dealers "sweat the judges" by timely standing at the tanks while the judges are actively judging the GC category....kind of "letting them know" which koi are his and they need to be sure they don't screw around and pick the wrong fish without being sure they have a reason.
Well no, come to think of it I am pretty sure he just wanted to learn...
i am so funny!

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop It was in San Diego: "This is a hobbyist only show. All koi entered must be owned by and accompanied by the registered entrant. The actual owner of the koi must be present to sign the official entry form." And it is in Gardena: "All koi entered must be owned by an amateur hobbyist. Owners need not be present as long as their signed release form accompanies the representative/dealer entering the koi. Dealer owned koi not allowed!" Unfortunately, enforcement of those 'contracts' after the fact cannot make up for the lack of ethics displayed aforehand.

We are not gonna split hairs over this...this can't even be split....

That rule is easily and honestly circumvented. the hobbyist buys the koi for a nickel, and agrees to pay a bonus if it wins. and agrees to sell the koi back for a dime ( a handsome 100% profit for his worries) if it does not win.

Are we gonna force people to keep fish in their possession after the show?

the best rule was one I posed years ago.
"All fish entered in the show must come from the ponds and be in the personal possession of the person entering them immediately PRIOR to the show....I don't even think AuntieSue's rule of a certain number of months needs to be added.
But if you want to argue that someone will have the dealer deliver the fish to the "owner's Pond" and place it in the pond (still in the bag) and remove it from the pond (still in the bag) and then bring it to the show and sign that it was in their pond and it did come directly from their pond to the show.
Well yeah maybe the koi should have to be at the "Owner's Pond" for a week.