What Hi to look for in a tosai?

[mingaun]

I have been reading some of the posts about hi but still slightly confused. What are the hi features to look for in a tosai. How do i know the hi will thicken up later. I read some that say the hi was so thin but as it grew it became thick.

Sashi is a sign of good hi? What about Kiwa? What am i suppose to look for in a kiwa? The one most confusing to me is that tosai will develop further and it is not finished. Dont buy fish with great colors because they have peaked. So that means i need to look for less vibrant color?

Please help. Pictures would be even better

Thanks
Mingaun

[MikeM]

It takes a long time, with much observation of many koi, to gain the 'eye' needed to make the jugments involved. Since the breeder presumably knows his fish best, it can be assumed that the best were kept to grow to nisai. That is why many serious hobbyists only purchase nisai or older. Most tosai available are not going to turn out. Some will. After all, the breeder only has room to keep a limited number. Such tosai may not reach the level of most kept by the breeder to grow to nisai, but many of those nisai will not be the very best either. It is a learning experience to acquire tosai and observe how they develop. However, when you are looking at tosai priced at $1,000 US, you should be getting very good fish with a real chance of developing into a koi worth having for years. If you do not have the knowledge to be confident in deciding, then you either need to have an experienced koikeeper guide you, or a lot of confidence in the dealer.

BTW, when it comes to tosai, unlike older koi, I think the best often are not available until March-May. The breeder will have held a group he thought best in the Fall after harvest. These are grown over the winter months. When the breeder is ready to place them in the mud ponds to raise to nisai, he makes a final selection for limited space in the mud pond. Those not selected will generally be far better than the tosai sold off in the Fall and Winter months. They just were not quite as good as those kept to become nisai. However, the breeders in southern Japan, like Momotaro, do have spawnings at non-conventional times and use their facilities to take advantage of their capital investment. So, they can have tosai available at times when most breeders do not. It adds to all the questions a hobbyist can have in their mind when looking at a tosai... or any koi.

[mingaun]

Hello Mike

Thank you for those information. I have been searching for some of those answers all over and it is good of you to give me all in one reply More please!! I know it is not easy to develop an eye but i do hope to learn as much as i can.

I need to trust my dealer. I will most probably get his koi because he lives a few block from my house and he has told me that he will teach me and help me to manage the koi from the start and ensure that there will be no problems. He will also help me at anytime there is emergency. His house is few minutes drive from mine.

In that sense i am a bit stuck with this dealer as well. I dont have enough confidence to get through the new pond syndrome period when the biological filtration is not mature yet. Dont think any other dealer can offer me this service. If they were cheap kois then i will go ahead and do it myself with trial and error but good kois are not cheap and cheap kois are not nice. Oh well .. you cant have them all

Mingaun

[JasPR]

I ,of course, agree with everything Mike M just posted and his response truly reflects the thinking of a guy who 'gets it'.
But I'd like to answer you from a different perspective.
What to look for, very much depends on what your goals and expectations are. It is often assumed that we are looking for the 'best'. And the 'best' usually means a future fish that will become finished and complete as a full adult. But this also assumes ( you know the old joke about the word 'assumes') that you have the environment and skill set to cause a high quality beni to get to it's genetic potential. Many of us, lack either the pond design, knowledge or circumstances to do that.
Coming from the fish themselves is a selection of male beni, early finishing beni, raw future female beni and 'personal taste' beni. These things override the linebred characteristics or text book descriptions of ideal beni. So this further emphasizes the question- what are you looking for in a koi's beni?

I think the universal view of young beni, when we are beginners, is a deep bright very red beni. And this is still a great choice for young male show fish. The very best actually.
But if you are spending big money on a future fish ( the assumption being that you will show it at age 4 to 8, then you look for a softer, less developed beni that has indications of red/orange stars within the hi plate. But before focusing on the tree, you need to see the forest. And in this case, the forest is the shiro ground. It MUST be perfect of beni is to develop up to your expectations on a tategoi.

Just some thoughts, JR

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi mingaun,

There's some excellent advice here in this post. For hobbyists without the benefit of years of experience looking at beni, the easiest way to "see" what you're actually looking at is to get accurate facts on the fish - the date it was born, and extremely important, the conditions it's been raised in over the last few months,... and very importantly, the size of the fish at that age,... not necessarily to predict that it will grow large, but to predict how the beni will develop over the next few years.

Ideally to get the very best, and to ensure the Koi hasn't been stunted, isn't a year or two older than it's claimed, or finished prematurely you need to get it either right after harvest, (normally 6 months) or within the 1st 12 months of its life, right after the breeder makes his final selection for the tosai he will grow out to nisai.

For the very best, and best chance at a good future you have to get it "fresh" and you have to continue the excellent care for the next 5 years,... or less if you're finishing a Koi smaller for showing.

Here are some pics and video of tosai Kohakus just after harvest, at 6 months of age - 23 cm to 30 cm. These are at a quality level that wouldn't be sold until their 2nd or 3rd year. Notice the slightly muted look of the beni,... but more importantly the body shapes at this age. These are all Kohakus for the future,... at this point. Pay particular attention to the texture of the beni. Notice how different this is than the eye-grabbing in-your-face red we see on tosai that are for sale. A different purpose altogether.

The handsome mug in the video is my good Koi friend Chuck Shaffer.
Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

(streaming video)
http://www.fototime.com/3679A3B703D8C71/conv.wmv

(mac)
http://www.fototime.com/3679A3B703D8C71/orig.mp4

[dick benbow]

I do a seminar on tosai selection and cover this in my class.

I have classes scheduled with High desert koi in the bend oregon area and with the north
Idaho Koi keepers in April.

In september I'll be back in Idaho for a pacific NW koi club association get together.

One of the reasons i do a hands on class with live koi as opposed to film is that it's easier to grasp in person and I keep my classes small so everyone gets personal attention.

In addition to the great info provided by Mike and JR, Uniformity from the nose to the tail of beni density and the difference between hard and soft beni comes in to play.

[Eugeneg]

One of the reasons i do a hands on class with live koi as opposed to film is that it's easier to grasp in person and I keep my classes small so everyone gets personal attention.

In addition to the great info provided by Mike and JR, Uniformity from the nose to the tail of beni density and the difference between hard and soft beni comes in to play.[/quote]

After watching Michio Maeda grade 500 tosai at a speed of about 5 seconds each I asked and was told he does it others watch . The reason being that he rarely made a mistake .
Only after carefull study I could see why the choice and only on some of them . I came to the conclusion that it is the breeder that best understands his own fish especially a renowned one . You might as well ask the price and that will tell you the quality . On the other hand the dealer goes more on what the fish looks like unless he has had years of experience with a perticular breeder and raised the fish . It is difficult to communicate because of language so the best method is to let the breeder pick for you .
Regards
Eugene

[mingaun]

Thank you all for your much detailed response and help.

The particular tosai that my dealer sort of recommended highly to me is a Momotaro at about USD1500. I have not bowled it out to see carefully as i dont want to commit yet. It is a ferocious eater. The beni color was orangy red and it is HUGE compared to the rest. It does have that scale where the middle is darker which is a sign that the color will get darker. I could barely see some sashi ... not easy in a pond with other kois. The only thing i dont like about it is that the beni gives me the impression that it is thin. Some of you have said that beni that is thick is like painting a couple of layers on it. This beni does not give the impression of depth but then again i am no expert.

I did notice that there was two spots that look shining yellow, i suspect it is the scale that came off. I am not too sure about this but do scales grow back? I would love to take the koi out and take a photo to share on this forum for the experts to comment but i am not sure how the dealer will react.

Hmm... this hobby is tougher than i thought.

Mingaun

[mingaun]

Hello Brady

Your koi's always have that great shiroji. Is this to do with its blood line or what? They are really white and that is what i like most in a koi. In fact to me it comes second after body conformation. I find that jumbo koi with lousy pattern and hi but if the shiroji is white like snow and have that lustre it looks just incredible. The female tosai with my dealer is slightly yellow

Mingaun

[Brady Brandwood]

"Your koi's always have that great shiroji. Is this to do with its blood line or what?"

Hi Mingaun,

It's a combination of quality genetics on both sides, mother and father, and also in the very early culling. High quality white has a distinct look right from the beginning. A good Gosanke has to have a good white base. The quality/texture of the skin is everything in how our eye sees a Koi,... why some have a "wow" factor, and some Koi don't.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood