Fish pickin' at EnKoi . . .

[Lam Nguyen]

Thank you gspotmc (sorry, I don't know your real name). Do you know if the growth that you attained from your tosai is as good as tosai that are reared in Japanese mud ponds? I don't know if it's possible to compete against the Japanese breeders who attain nisai that are in the 20" range when they are harvested in Oct/Nov of their 2nd summer. While a lot of hobbyists agree that it's not about how fast a koi grows, I think that it does especially when you want to vie for the top award at a show.

You are right, gspotmc, tosai really can change a lot over the course of a year. I really don't think that their change slows down until they reach nisai, and perhaps this is why buying nisai appeals to a lot of hobbyists, especially those who are serious about the hobby and who are chasing the GC award. I just wanted to share with you guys that I am starting to see that there are limitations in this hobby, and until we resolve these limitations (i.e., have grow-out ponds in the United States and being able to buy top-quality tosai from Japanese breeders), I just think that tosai are great for learning but perhaps does not have a very high chance of winning top awards at a show. Just my opinion, Koi Coach.

[dick benbow]

Coupla things to keep in mind with Tosai, Lam

Raising koi is farming and the crop can be a good year or a poor one. On the good years
you may have more of better koi than facilities are available to retain them. So It does pay to follow your favorite breeder to anticipate what kind of a year it was.

Tosai, that were kept over winter and cut just short of making the grade for retention are good prospects. Find a dealer that is going over to Japan in the spring and can get access.

I have one local dealer that orders boxes of different grades of koi from the breeder. She gets AAA and they are expensive. These are the ones I go thru with a fine tooth comb. I can only afford one a year. It is worth keeping them for three years. Many end up as residents.

We'll talk more about this in two weeks at my seminar, Lam you've come a long way fast since I've met you and i commend and encourage your drive for knowledge....

[Eugeneg]

.(i.e., have grow-out ponds in the United States and being able to buy top-quality tosai from Japanese breeders), I just think that tosai are great for learning but perhaps does not have a very high chance of winning top awards at a show. Just my opinion, Koi Coach.[/quote]
At the upcomeing Momomataro auction there are tosai that would have a high chance of winning GC at any US show .They will even be kept over till next Oct or possibly longer if you desire and there is only one condition and that is you have to outbid the Asian koi people . Some of these fish are allready 16in . There are a couple of kohakus from Bently that I really like well may be next year I looked at them in Nov and they were just incredible in quality I do have the mud pond which is the first necesity for raising tosai .To me raising fish from tosai is extremely rewarding and the only way to study fish .
Regards
Eugene

[gspotmc]

Lam,
Tosai are only good to study and also a learning experience. I bought a $2k Ogawa tosai.
Her pattern is very good. Body was excellent By the time she got to nisai she was already 21 inches. After a month she got ill with a tumor. The risk is very high. Growing them out is rrewarding because you see them grow and change. Some tosai will look very nice but the question is will she look good at nisai and sansai. The reason I got the Ogawa kohaku is that I want to have at least a young champ or mature champ. She never got to that point.
Michael

[Lam Nguyen]

Thank you all for the responses and thank you Dick for the kind words. As you all can see, I am still very much a rookie by heart and hope that the members that post on this forum continue to be my Coach/sensei/mentor. One of the many things that attracted me to this hobby, and continues to do so, is the fact that there are so many different levels/approaches to the hobby. As all of you already know, there are the watergardeners, then there are the koi hobbyists who are into koi but not into showing, then there are the serious hobbyists who are just kichi about koi and every aspect of it. In fact, these serious hobbyists go "bazooka" at the mention of the word "koi"! I, myself, am on a journey to find out where I fit on this spectrum (I can assure you that I am past the WG stage! Whew!).

Dick, one of the many components of this spectrum is the age of the koi that I should purchase. Should I purchase it in the fall of its first grow-out summer (tosai), in the spring before it gets released to the mud pond for its second grow-out summer (ake nisai), the following fall when it has completed two grow-out summers and is a nisai, or as ake sansai, etc. You brought up a very good point that ake nisai are good purchases because of the breeders' limited spaces. However, the purchases get progressively better with the age of the koi. In this area, I am definitely still very indecisive.

Another component of the spectrum is, once I purchase a tosai, will I have the knowledge/skills/facility to give it the best chance to grow and mature into a contender? Eugene mentioned that purchased tosai/nisai can be kept in a breeder's mud pond. I have toyed with this idea many times and somehow I just don't like the idea of buying something and having someone taking care of it for me....it's almost like buying my own trophy (please, I am not trying to offend anyone). Eugene, you are very fortunate to have your own mud pond. If we were neighbors, then I would not hesitate a bit to pay you a fee just to keep my tosai in it for a summer or two. In this area, we are still inferior to the Japanese breeders d/t limited spaces.

Michael, you brought up a very good point in that purchasing tosai is a gamble....high risk, high rewards?! I am sorry to hear that your Ogawa tosai didn't pan out as you had hoped. Hopefully that was a good learning experience for you. As for myself, I am still a rookie searching for his own niche in this hobby. To me, the greatest achievement of all is in purchasing a tosai and grooming it to become a GC contender. I believe that this feat is possible, but it's going to require lots of knowledge, skills, and patience. Anyways, just my thoughts is all!

[gspotmc]

Lam,
Buying tosai to groom as future GC here in the US is far fetch and also a dream. Buying a nisai or sansai to grow out in Japan is a possibility. Why I say that it is a dream here is because we have to consider a lot of factors. First is water quality. Second is stocking level. third is genetics, fourth husbandry, last is patience. High end tosai would normally cost $5K going up w/o any assurance how they will end up or finish.

[Eugeneg]

[quote=gspotmc;109460]Lam,
Tosai are only good to study and also a learning experience. I bought a $2k Ogawa tosai.
Her pattern is very good. Body was excellent By the time she got to nisai she was already 21 inches. After a month she got ill with a tumor. The risk is very high. Growing them out is rrewarding because you see them grow and change. Some tosai will look very nice but the question is will she look good at nisai and sansai. The reason I got the Ogawa kohaku is that I want to have at least a young champ or mature champ. She never got to that point.
Michael
The problem with one fish is the cost of doing business . Buying and shiping for one fish can be pricy as shipping one box or 10 is the same amount of work to the breeder or dealer . Simply the cost of doing business dictates that the price doubles for one fish .Now if you would have purchased ten the price would have been $10,000 and even that is a small amount for breeders of high quality fish . Out of the 10 you would have at least 5 possible contenders for a GC in the US . Although the standards are rising rapidly .In raising tosai I think that it is important to have just tosai in one pond and if that is not possible then in fact nisai might be a better choice .
As we improve our stock and move to better quality fish we also have to take into consideration how much value our fish we are discarding will bring . Fish are improving at such a rapid pace that in fact they are going down in value .Where one lives can dictate the value for reselling very much as in Ontario Canada . I f one purchases high quality nisai by the time one gets them home the value will be halved . By buying a few boxes of a higher grade tosai and raising them in a mud pond it is possible to break even here and learn a lot . It takes a few years for people to undestand that skin quality can double the price of a fish but first they have own one . By bringing in better tosai I hope I can enlighten some people in this area and this will promote the koi hobby around here from its very low level .
Regards
Eugene

[gspotmc]

[quote=Eugeneg;109495]

Quote: Originally Posted by gspotmc Lam, Tosai are only good to study and also a learning experience. I bought a $2k Ogawa tosai. Her pattern is very good. Body was excellent By the time she got to nisai she was already 21 inches. After a month she got ill with a tumor. The risk is very high. Growing them out is rrewarding because you see them grow and change. Some tosai will look very nice but the question is will she look good at nisai and sansai. The reason I got the Ogawa kohaku is that I want to have at least a young champ or mature champ. She never got to that point. Michael The problem with one fish is the cost of doing business . Buying and shiping for one fish can be pricy as shipping one box or 10 is the same amount of work to the breeder or dealer . Simply the cost of doing business dictates that the price doubles for one fish .Now if you would have purchased ten the price would have been $10,000 and even that is a small amount for breeders of high quality fish . Out of the 10 you would have at least 5 possible contenders for a GC in the US . Although the standards are rising rapidly .In raising tosai I think that it is important to have just tosai in one pond and if that is not possible then in fact nisai might be a better choice . As we improve our stock and move to better quality fish we also have to take into consideration how much value our fish we are discarding will bring . Fish are improving at such a rapid pace that in fact they are going down in value .Where one lives can dictate the value for reselling very much as in Ontario Canada . I f one purchases high quality nisai by the time one gets them home the value will be halved . By buying a few boxes of a higher grade tosai and raising them in a mud pond it is possible to break even here and learn a lot . It takes a few years for people to undestand that skin quality can double the price of a fish but first they have own one . By bringing in better tosai I hope I can enlighten some people in this area and this will promote the koi hobby around here from its very low level . Regards Eugene

Eugene,
Thanks for the input. Tosai growing is competitive and fun. We are hoping to get the best out from a fish whichi is very hard . For people who has the acces to mud ponds. they should start investing in tosai to grow out and be a candidate for GC. The tosais can be pricey from start but if they have the patience. It will pay off.

[dick benbow]

Not too far down the line, there will be some GC's in strongly contested regional shows that were bred by domestic breeders in the USA. Brett,Mat,Brady, (to name only a few)
are getting closer every year.

If that is true, it will be quite easy to purchase a high class tosai and either raise it yourself or have it raised.I honestly don't see anything wrong with raising fish in other's mudponds. One of the best lessons I have learned along the way is to buy brother/sisters from the same parents and then bring one home and leave one there and by fall you can compare. I'm usually within an inch of comparative growth. I'm not suggesting we get into an argument over which koi is best, domestic or japanese. But I am suggesting there are ways to purchase tosai locally or from japan and have strong representation in shows. I never got GC in the decades I showed. But I was always pleased with RGC or tategoi because I worked so hard to allow the koi to get
where it got. So we have to ask ourselves " is this hobby only about winning GC " or is personal achievement and growing in the hobby. I quess that's something that will vary according to the individual.

Each class of fish has it's purpose. tateshita is a crop to help underwrite cost for the breeder and a great learning tool for those just learning the first few years to manage
a healthy sucessful pond. tategoi is the next step for thos that wish to advance in the hobby and become enamoured with the challenge of showing. According to your pocketbook, you can advance furthur with other options including buying a finished fish
for immediate entry.

I think selective tosai purchase can still allow a person to be competitive. Mike Snaden of Yume koi in the UK has coached some of his customers to purchase and raise high class tosai and has been very sucessful in getting them placed in the National in 5 years and at over 80 cm. I find that to be quite an achievement. Yes it takes knowledge and facilities
but it is being done sucessfully

[Lam Nguyen]

Very thought-provoking responses, guys. Eugene, you brought up a very good point about buying in bulk and fish price depreciation. I don't think that I have ever sold a koi for more than its purchase price. In fact, I ended giving away most of them as I desperately try to reduce my stock level from about 35 koi at one time to about 10. Michael, I think that the "tosai to GC" dream can become a reality in the near future as Dick mentioned. I agree that the level of competition at US shows is increasing rapidly, but I also agree that the knowledge/husbandry base among American hobbyists is increasing as well.

Dick, I really embrace yoru concept of buying siblings and leaving one to be grown out in the breeder's mud pond and bringing one home and comparing them at the end of the grow-out season. The reason why I never really liked the idea of purchasing a tosai and leaving it with the breeder is because it's almost like buying a nisai in that you don't partake an active role in its development during that tosai to nisai year. I am all in agreement that it's all about the personal achievement/advancement in the hobby more than the GC. But wouldn't it be wonderful for the judges/koi community to acknowledge and reward your hard work?!

I, too, thought about Mike Snaden and the articles that he wrote when I read this thread. I believe that the koi community has a lot to learn from him. I especially like the article he wrote in Koi Nation & other articles posted on the internet about tosai and water quality.....speaking of which, Dick, I heard that you will be giving a talk on water quality?! I don't know if my club is interested, but I will email the club president about possibly hosting you in the near future.......gotta get back to work..........