spring time. do you believe in areonomas alley?

[moikoi]

as our pond temp starts to warm up here in the U.S.
not all of us can afford a heated pond.

[MikeM]

Well, I believe in "aeromonas alley" in one sense, but not in another. I believe it is accurate that bacteria become active sooner than the full immune system of a koi kept in cold winter conditions. I do not accept the notion that this is the direct cause of Spring ailments. Rather, it is the stressing of the koi for a long period by exposure to cold, poor water conditions, poor pond maintenance during frigid periods, etc. The bacteria are there year-round. Cuts and abrasions can become infected year-round if the koi is kept in poor conditions... even in the warm months of the year. One has to look at the total picture, not a single interesting aspect. I kinda wonder if 'aeromonas alley' would have struck such a chord with pondkeepers if the alliteration was absent?

[PapaBear]

It might be more accurately described as "Dirty Ditch Water Syndrome", but aeromonas does live there...

[JasPR]

Mike has it right. Aeromonas is an omni-present creature in any pond environment. If you do a test for them and it is zero seek a new testing center!

The name of the game is to keep the count low. Not by trying to kill it off. But rather providing conditions that simply don't allow or encourage the rapid growth in numbers.
The number one case of this dynamic is over feeding in early spring. The number one case in water gardens is dirty water.

The other side of the equation of course, is the condition of the fish. Fish should be fundamentally healthing coming out of winter, but weak as they rouse. TLC is a good approach. Small meals and routine maintenance. Ironically the garden ponder that sets their fish up for 'aeromonas alley' are the ones who empty the pond and do 'spring cleaning'! They disrupt the biology, add chemicals and clean filters to the extreme. This puts fasted wintered fish ( especially OVER wintered fish who experience G.A.S. from cold stress) at a distinct disadvantage. If a fish is under ice for 10-18 weeks and the ice has now melted into the water, the very last thing they need in this very weak condition is another environmental challenge!
The 'art' of koi keeping is part of the 'science' of koi keeping at this point. Small but frequent maintenance is so very important. And small amounts of food is also key as the fish is not ready to assimilate large meals and most food will pass thru and further deteriorate already stale water conditions.
Daily sump dumping is a good start. Followed by 10% weekly water changes. Of course this all assumes you kept the filters running, which all hobbyists should do. If you bring the koi insode then start up the pond in early march and do not put the fish in until april 1. This will give the filters time to grow and mellow the new water ( In this case I WOULD do a 50% water change and dump the sumps weekly even though teh fish are not in the pond yet).
My fish ate yesterday for the fist time this year. I feed them OJ soaked Hikari wheatgerm pellets. I have 16 koi and the water is 51 F. I fed them one handful ( about a cup) of pellets. I'll likely feed them again on Friday. But this does not mean I won't put in a dozen pellets before then as I test the behavior and observe the condition of each individual as they slowly rise to the pellets.

Aeromonas alley is a valuable urban myth as it has the beginner hobbyist alert and on their toes watching for early problems. It is valuable in that it teaches the beginner, who imagines their koi cozy and sleepy from 'hibernation', to consider another reality - that the koi have survived another winter. The facts of aeromonas alley are unfortunately accurate enough to have brought older hobbyists to an incorrect conclusion. That koi have no immune system in a temperature range where aeromonas is on the rise. If that were true than nature would have made carp extinct a long time ago!
Since the emergence of the theory of aeromonas alley, higher end hobbyists have muted winter effects/condtions ( running filters but covering and/or heating ponds) and improved husbandry/filter techniques and pond designs. And the legend of Aeromonas Alley has pretty much been put to rest. Koi simply do not get infections when winter conditions are managed for an ideal winter stasis. This is because the key to all of this is the stress of winter conditions and what that stress does to a fasting, wintering fish's immune system and general condition. - JR

[luke frisbee]

One Line
TWO line
Red Line
BLUE line

[111whalen]

So, do you feel that there is a certain temp this occurs? In So Cal, several hobbyists have had the most problem at 60-65 degrees. Our water rarely goes below 50; in fact this year mine never did. It was a cool winter and the pond stayed 51-53 for well over a month. I started feeding about 3 weeks ago at about 55 degrees. I am now up to once a day and the pond reads 59-61. I do expect it to rise the next several days.
Because you folks "in the cold" go colder, does that change the alley? I realize that there are many factors, but is there evidence that certain temps favor the bad bugs over the good? Inquiring minds...

[dick benbow]

I run my inside pond during the fall winter and spring at no lower than 53-55 F. Then with the approach of spring I start cranking it up. It's 64 F now. I don't experience a temp alley
(always listed before as 55 to 65 ) because of the attention to water quality. My indfoor pond is tiny and crowded ( only half the size of my outside pond ) but I've never had issues, which in my mind confirms what's been said earlier by Mike and Jim.....

[KoiCop]

Hello Mark . . .

We can keep our koi for many months in the temp range that Luther Chien identified as AA -- and never have an issue with ulcers.

It's not really about the bugs. It's not really about the temps.

It's about koi whose winter conditions were not properly managed, thereby stressing them out, degrading their immune systems and making them susceptible to parasites and bacterial infections they would otherwise shrug off.

Without that debilitating winter stress, those water temps shouldn't be a threat to our koi here in SoCal.

[schildkoi]

Mark,
Let me kind of explain. The "Alley" is NOT simply a temperature range in and of itself. There are other conditions that come into play for this "perceived" condition to come to fruition. First, the Koi themsleves must be exposed to colder water temperatures (40s and below). Second, the water condition itself matters in that once the aforementioned occurrs (duration of such also comes into play) then the worse the water quality, the more likely that one could experience "Areomonous Alley".

The extremely cold water temps that knock the filter back to about nil, also adversely affect the Koi's immune response. While the water temps rise, there is a lag in the koi's immune response, behind the Growth (measured in cfu count) for bacteria, Thus, the koi can become overwelmed so to speak by higher bacteria counts than the redeveloping immune response can handle.

Now, for those that maintain their Koi in "Aeromonous Alley" through the winter, they typically do NOT experience such since the koi is not subjected to the adversities of the colder water along with the lagging behind effect. In addition, once again, water quality itself also comes into play.

Make sense?

Steve

[Eugeneg]

.

It's about koi whose winter conditions were not properly managed, thereby stressing them out, degrading their immune systems and making them susceptible to parasites and bacterial infections they would otherwise shrug off.

That is absolutely true and this applies more so high quality koi . A surprising number of people think that koi can be kept under the ice for a long winter by just useing a bubbler or a pump to circulate water . With no water changes through the winter and poorly designed ponds that have a great heat loss . I t is a matter of time that if winter does not kill the fish then spring will and while a few domestic fish especially the low quality fish survive it is the show quality fish that will die first as they are a lot weeker .
The minimum water temperature is critical . I keep my adult fish in a greenhouse the females I maintain the temp at 48f and the males at 44f . The females are in a 1000gal pond with a daily complete water change from a well . The water then flows into a 7000 gal pond so that gets a complete water change weekly . As soon as spring comes I put them in my mud pond so that completes the recovery from a hard winter .
If fish do need to be kept outside then a tent like structure should be built over the top of the pond as well as water changes . Although water freezes at 32f it starts to get slushy at 36f and that makes it difficult for fish to move their gills . Our building regulations are ,a ground frost wall should be 4ft deep as that is considered a safe depth so frost will not heave the foundation . That is one of the meny reasons why Aquasccape style ponds are not suitable in colder climates . I f you are going to build a pond in a colder climate consider insulation 2ft wide around your pond as well as make sides 3ft deep this will insure that you loose less of the precious heat from the base .
Regards
Eugene