Where have you gained most of your Koi Knowledge?

[luke frisbee]

Steve,
So much of what you say is your conjecture. You've inudated with with a multitude of inaccurate statements...
First and foremost you did not know the definition of the word "fry" and chose to dismiss me for your inability to have a working knowledge base of the terms within the hobby.
Secondly,
I love Brett, he has never tried to make light of a person's knowledge based on the fact that they do not agree with him. And all the book learning in the world, all the feild work in the world doesn't mean he knows EVERYTHING....several people have posted that they have seen koi eat koi. I have. I know several people that are in the business and do not want to rile your feathers because they would be affected on an economic level, and they have told me they have seen koi eat koi and accept it as an ongoing behavior.
Brett is allowed to be wrong concerning one simple fact. And if he still believes koi do not eat koi, at least he is a good enough person to not try and rebuke what I saw by referring to me in a derogatory manner.

And your insinuation when lumping me in with the Epher...you were kissing up to that man while he was doing the petty underhanded things he was doing, but you turned a blind eye to it till he went after you. I on the other hand turned on him because of what I saw him do to other people and After I told him off on his board he rewrote history...and you stay right there kissing his butt. You and many others started attcaking me at that point, saying i was Jealous of your Leader, many in your circle rewrote history along with him.
And your best attempt to lump me in with him is to say I changed the words when I quoted a previous post within the same thread.
When I did this I expected a small stir, by the original poster and that was my intent. Which was to give them something to sound off about...to go ahead and flesh out their original post...i didn't rearrange their original where it was. there is ahuge difference there. I gave the original poster something to play with, something they could read and digest and reply to. I didn't hide it. i didn't take it to some other board. I did it right there.
over on newtcity i do it all the time and guess wht..there the members don't have a stick up their butts and they can laugh about it, and comment about the change.
You and your ilk choose to make it a negative, and decide to attack me because of it....in ZERO of the cases where I rearranged the posts here and at the koishack was I attempting to cause grief or injury. And only but the simplest mind could find anything negative about what i did...or those bent on trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

And while my knowledge base does have a limit yours does not..you know everything.

[luke frisbee]

Cheryl,
read over the post where I give the particulars of when I watched koi attack koi and eat them....virtually nothing you posted coincides with the parameters I mentioned. the foremost aspect is that I clearly stated that LARGER koi do not attempt to chase and eat small koi as they have become cumbersome..it is the 8-12 inchers that fed on koi in my QT, and it was because they could maneuver well enough to cut off the agile 1-2 inch fry.
And also the predatory koi were in their home element not displaced from movement and clear shallow water.
So YES I will give you that...if koi, any size koi, are subjected to a variety of stressors from catching, bagging, and transporting, and then placed in shallow small enclosure they will will not eat 2 inch koi.

[carrie1964]

I`m going to duck in between Steve and Luke to answer the original question.
I started on the internet...and like Cindy it was my jumping off point. I quickly bought every book and magazine and DVD I could get my hands on and I still read them all.
But by far, my friends Mike P. and Troy have taught me SO much more than I could ever have learned on my own.
Even though I don`t post on here much.....I read almost every new post and I feel that even though there are some heated debates on here........I take something away from almost all the threads.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by Lam Nguyen First of all, I would like to clarify that I did not mean anything negative with my use of the word "elite". In fact, when I posted my comments, I received a couple of private messages regarding my usage of this terminology. I would like to clarify that never once did any negativity cross my mind when I used this word. I used it as a respect for those who are more knowledgable than I am and those who graciously offer their help/advise on this forum. I do have to agree with you, Steve, that I go on to this board for CREDIBLE information. I want to learn from the best and those who are very serious about the hobby. I do not wish to waste my time by weeding through cow*!#$ just to learn something. When it comes to debating, there are positive debates and then there are those debates that will hinder the advancement of both the hobby and my knowledge, and I do not have time to read the latter type of debates. I love this forum and have and always will consider it my forum. But when it comes to certain individuals who seem to state certain "facts" without backing up what they said with solid evidence, then this hobby will not progress. I have the utmost respect for you, Jasper, Dick Benbow, MikeM, and JNorth, Don, and others who have graciously offered to share their knowledge and experience and I hope that all of you continue to do so. Trust me, if it wasn't for all of you guys, then I wouldn't be where I am today, so I want to thank you. I just think that there's got to be a better way to monitor threads for credibility.

Lam,
I took no personal offense to your use of the word "elite". What you may not know that there is a "history" of the usage of this term by others who use it in a more derogatory manner. Please note Luke's quick follow-up when he stated in post 79 (following your post 74):

Quote: BTW I do very much appreciate the few that have commented that behavior shown by the "koi elite"ists.

Lam, as far as another way t monito threads for credibility? Let me give you some observations. In the grand scope of things, there are literally hundreds of advanced hobbyists who choose not to post on internet forums. Its a shame really since they choose not to share their wealth of knowledge utilizing this media. Yet these same individuals will openly discuss all aspects of koi in a live setting to anyone willing. Many of these people have in the past posted on forums such as this one...even including this one but either no longer do or do so very rarely. Simply go to almost any koi show and seek these people out and ask them "why"? The most common response that you are likely to hear is that they do not want to get involved in the crap that takes place on many of these forums.

Now, I'll go you one further in that I know many of the people that would fall into this group and call them friends as they would call me. However, if you were to ask them the names of those who stir the pot you will hear names such as Luke, Hawley, Height, Berland and others. You may even hear my name on a "rare" occasion. So as we get back to the topic of this thread, although the internet can be a good source of information there are a few apples that spoil the pie so to speak and make this media a tough one to learn from.

The knowledgeable who offfer their knowledge freely simply get abused by those unwilling to learn and in the end, it is those who are willing to learn who lose the most....access to those knowledgeable people through this media.

Steve

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee Cheryl, read over the post where I give the particulars of when I watched koi attack koi and eat them....virtually nothing you posted coincides with the parameters I mentioned. the foremost aspect is that I clearly stated that LARGER koi do not attempt to chase and eat small koi as they have become cumbersome..it is the 8-12 inchers that fed on koi in my QT, and it was because they could maneuver well enough to cut off the agile 1-2 inch fry. And also the predatory koi were in their home element not displaced from movement and clear shallow water. So YES I will give you that...if koi, any size koi, are subjected to a variety of stressors from catching, bagging, and transporting, and then placed in shallow small enclosure they will will not eat 2 inch koi.

Oh, so its "stressor" that make them not want to eat Luke? Funny how a koi, any koi, of ALL sizes did not eat those fingerlings in the Specific situation cited. These are the same koi that had been fasted from 7 to 10 days prior and that when returned home ate like hogs. Now being in a QT, I guess they were no more stressed Luke?

(shaking head)

Steve

[JasPR]

To the advanced members who have weighted the opportunity to teach and the grief from annoying types in these social areanas and decided to coccoon instead of engage, I say:

Illegitimi non carborundum!

JR

[Campcheryl]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee Cheryl, read over the post where I give the particulars of when I watched koi attack koi and eat them....virtually nothing you posted coincides with the parameters I mentioned. the foremost aspect is that I clearly stated that LARGER koi do not attempt to chase and eat small koi as they have become cumbersome..it is the 8-12 inchers that fed on koi in my QT, and it was because they could maneuver well enough to cut off the agile 1-2 inch fry. And also the predatory koi were in their home element not displaced from movement and clear shallow water. So YES I will give you that...if koi, any size koi, are subjected to a variety of stressors from catching, bagging, and transporting, and then placed in shallow small enclosure they will will not eat 2 inch koi.

Oh lukie dear....... you are the one who started a thread titled :Koi eat Koi" and then stated the following: Koi eat koi.
"They do. Whether you've seen it or not I have. Several people have. many Breeders have as well. Some haven't.
other fish eat koi too. And not just fish.

Some new person may not go on to read your yada yada yada ramblings and go around thinking and believing koi eat koi. Good job! So when you stated you are more knowledgeable than Brett, is that wrong as well? We are so blessed to have such an elitist as you teaching us.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee Steve, So much of what you say is your conjecture. You've inudated with with a multitude of inaccurate statements... First and foremost you did not know the definition of the word "fry" and chose to dismiss me for your inability to have a working knowledge base of the terms within the hobby. Secondly, I love Brett, he has never tried to make light of a person's knowledge based on the fact that they do not agree with him. And all the book learning in the world, all the feild work in the world doesn't mean he knows EVERYTHING....several people have posted that they have seen koi eat koi. I have. I know several people that are in the business and do not want to rile your feathers because they would be affected on an economic level, and they have told me they have seen koi eat koi and accept it as an ongoing behavior. Brett is allowed to be wrong concerning one simple fact. And if he still believes koi do not eat koi, at least he is a good enough person to not try and rebuke what I saw by referring to me in a derogatory manner. And your insinuation when lumping me in with the Epher...you were kissing up to that man while he was doing the petty underhanded things he was doing, but you turned a blind eye to it till he went after you. I on the other hand turned on him because of what I saw him do to other people and After I told him off on his board he rewrote history...and you stay right there kissing his butt. You and many others started attcaking me at that point, saying i was Jealous of your Leader, many in your circle rewrote history along with him. And your best attempt to lump me in with him is to say I changed the words when I quoted a previous post within the same thread. When I did this I expected a small stir, by the original poster and that was my intent. Which was to give them something to sound off about...to go ahead and flesh out their original post...i didn't rearrange their original where it was. there is ahuge difference there. I gave the original poster something to play with, something they could read and digest and reply to. I didn't hide it. i didn't take it to some other board. I did it right there. over on newtcity i do it all the time and guess wht..there the members don't have a stick up their butts and they can laugh about it, and comment about the change. You and your ilk choose to make it a negative, and decide to attack me because of it....in ZERO of the cases where I rearranged the posts here and at the koishack was I attempting to cause grief or injury. And only but the simplest mind could find anything negative about what i did...or those bent on trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. And while my knowledge base does have a limit yours does not..you know everything.

Luke,
dealing with your last statement first, I have never proclaimed to know everything. I listen and learn from CREDIBLE sources all of the time...unfortunately youhave a history of not doing so.

Now, let's talk the definition of Fry, in particular KOI fry. In your other thread, Brett has given you the following as it realtes to the industry. Apparently you are discounting such:

Quote: Gamete-prior to fertilization Zygote-post fertilization Embryo-in the egg Eyed embryo-24 hours pre-hatch Larvae-immediatly post hatch Yolk sac fry-24 hours to 72 hours (after egg absorption) Fry-72 hours to one inch long Fingerling-one inch long to 6 inches long Juvenile-6 inches to sexual maturity (can happen at small sizes) Adult-sexually mature The above are the life stages of a koi. Brett

I think this definition is a tad more specific and applicable Luke.

As for the comparison of you to others, "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and acts like a duck, it's probably is a duck."

I bet you were a champion at that old Milton Bradley game........"Twister."

Steve

[luke frisbee]

Steve just for you I'll go and get my reply to the posting of that incredibly inept attempt to define the "Life Stages of koi"...
That attempt was sophomoric and is typical of your understanding..you blindly accept total garbage like that because it comes from a credible source and it fits in with how weak you are when it comes to figuring out whether something has merit...
and here is why it is not worth using in our case..or anyone's but the Paper inwhich the author developed this unscientific, and unprofessional "list. These are NOT accepted definitions. Thye were poorly titled and created by someone who needing to delineate several words they would use withi a paper is my best guess. it is required in the scientific community. I am surprised this "list survived in this form as this is nothing but a pretend glossary.


from another thread:



where do those definitions come from....
and why would the "life stages" of a koi have as one of its determinants length.
I really have a problem with people that "define" terms based on one determinant to start with and start arbitrarily attributing "life stages by SIZE"
As I know you are capable of critically thinking, you can see that whoever decided they would create this hierarchy did not understand that continuity and purpose should have been essential to "life stages" and that to describe a life stage in terms of length is ludicrous. Ludicrous to the point that the life stage of "adult" is defined as being sexually mature and then the person that developed the "stages" states that sexual maturity can happen at the juvenile size..
and to top it off they give "times" for some of the stages, so a koi is a fry at 72 hrs irregardless of egg absorption.

And a larvae is immediately post-hatch but what if the water was cold and the "eyed-embryo" doesn't hatch before the 74 hr window?
Does it skip "yolk sac fry" and just graduate to fry irregardless of its yolk sac.

the person that developed that set of definitions must have done so because of a need to discuss koi within a research paper. and I am afraid I would have not allowed that poorly delineated set of definitions to stand if i were his adviser.

the "life stages" of a koi can NOT be delineated in terms of length... there maybe be a very loose association between length and life stage...and time post fertilization and "life Stage' may also have a loose association but it really gets wiggy with "adult" koi and size.

and Even the term "life stages" shows that the author of the list is not using accepted definitions as fry, Fingerling and juvenile are actually the real juvenile stage of koi and most other fish.

in the scientific community this "list" would be severely criticized and no one would use it...
the stage would have to be delineated using the same parameters through out and there would have to be no ambiguity...
the ambiguity I have already discussed...
the choice of criteria to delineate would remain the same throughout..
either length. or structures or time but not a meld of all three.
yes if one is used then other general parameters could be mentioned, but one would have to remain though out
The author starts with a time line then starts mixing in morphology/structure as the criteria, and finally abandons both to use length, and then goes back to morphology or behavior. Are you kidding me? You use this!

"Life stages"? What life stage is "one inch to six inches"?

The true life stages of a koi could be described in terms of anatomy, they could be discussed in terms of behavior.
"Life Stages" of a koi cannot be described in terms of length, nor time post-fertilization.

No I am afraid DEFINITIONS are not "life stages". The term life stages was poorly developed by the author so they could refer to various sizes and morphologically different groups throughout their discussion concerning koi.

So steve I guees this is another good example of how you do not think and you do accept without thinking what any source that you believe is credible...the big flaw there is that you don't look at the information provided but only believe it if it comes from a source you like.

[Lam Nguyen]

Hi Jasper, I really don't know what illegitimi non carborundum mean, but I can assure you that it's not good. It's a shame that things like this happen because forums like this have been a huge part of my learning and advancement. As Steve said, it doesn't take much more than a couple of rotten apples to ruin the whole pie, and I don't blame advanced members for not posting here...........