Where have you gained most of your Koi Knowledge?

[l113892]

If you simply learn how to keep koi alive, you've learned a lot. I mean, throw out all your excuses- I can keep them alive once they get to age 2; if they stay out of the skimmer, I keep them alive; if they survive the Winter, on, on and on.

Lesson two- if you get good growth, you have learned a lot. Lesson three- If you keep them alive, get good growth, and their skin and bodies hold their form, you have learned a tremendous amount. It's pretty easy to judge where you are on the curve.

[schildkoi]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 If you simply learn how to keep koi alive, you've learned a lot. I mean, throw out all your excuses- I can keep them alive once they get to age 2; if they stay out of the skimmer, I keep them alive; if they survive the Winter, on, on and on. Lesson two- if you get good growth, you have learned a lot. Lesson three- If you keep them alive, get good growth, and their skin and bodies hold their form, you have learned a tremendous amount. It's pretty easy to judge where you are on the curve.

Ya know something Mike, that is a pretty simplistic way to look at it. I LIKE IT!
And as the old saying goes, the devil is in the details.

Steve

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi Luke, I am surprised that you have learned anything ever from the internet or anywhere else for that matter since you simply do not listen nor put things into context. The statement about you knowing more than Brett is laughable even on the simple subject you cite since you did not put what Brett had to say into "perspective." Koi will not eat other koi, that is such a simple but true statement. Putting it into context means that a koi will not eat another koi when those other koi are discernable as such. fry are a long way away from what is discernable as a koi. To another koi they are simply other larve to munch on and thus you have once again not put things into proper perspective before making a rash statement. Steve

Steve,
I have not changed the stupidity in your post above YOU did say it...
Now just a little logic to prove I do know more about that one fact than Brett.
But first let me clear up your post above...you left off the important fact that these fry were 1-2 inches long...you say you know alot about koi...can you tell me at what length you can determine if a koi is a koi? at what size do koi look like koi? yes Steve, a koi fry at 1 inch is definitely looking exactly like a koi. Learn to read. or at least quote me correctly. You just said I take things out of context. You just conveiniently forgot to state the size of the fry? Or are your reading skills less than that of what an Editor's should be?

Now onto to logic.
Has Brett seen EVERYTHING that koi do? Can other people witness events inwhich koi are involved that brett has not seen? If someone witnesses an event that Brett has not seen, did the event occur because brett did not see it? if brett has not seen such an event and therefore he believes those events do not occur, did the event not occur?
Common sense would tell you...if common sense ever tells you anything...that if an event occurs and someone actually sees the event happen several times, and another person has nerver seen the event that the event indeed did occur. Not everyone has to see an event for it to have happened.
So therefore when Brett saids" Koi do not eat koi" because he has never seen it. yet another person can state they have witnessed koi actively pursuing and consuming koi in their own QT while they watched it and they therefore belieive koi do eat other koi. the second person has "the knowledge" that the first person does not.
So I do have a greater knowledge base than brett concerning whether koi will eat koi..as he has never seen it happen and does not believe it does. Whereas I have seen it and I know they do.

Back when i witnessed it occur I did state that the occurence had unique parameters.
The bigger koi were the perfect size for eating 1-2 inch koi. they were in the 8-12 inch range. They are still very agile at that size. When they get bigger, and become bulkier, it would be very difficult for them to maneuver well enough to chase and cut-off the escape routes of fry that size.
Also koi that size are tryng to grow, not put on fat, and there is no better food for that than exactly what is trying to be created...Koi as food have the perfect balance of nutrients for growing koi. Cannibalism is great that way. I was only lightly feeding the larger koi so infact they were quite hungry.
Also, the 1-2 inchers were disoriented since they were the ones changing tanks. I was taking the best fry I had in a smaller 500gallon tank and moving them up to the 3500gallon QT so they would not be stunted, and would allow more room in the small tank for the fry left behind. They had never been exposed to larger fish and they did not get a chance to learn how to stay out of their way. The Small fish were at an extreme disadvantage. Which I will start another thread on in a few minutes.

So all things were right for me to see what I saw....8-12 inch koi combining their efforts to corral 1-2 inch koi (there might have been some over two inches but I'd rather err on the side of caution), and attack them in a concerted effort and eat them.

brett;s been around koi a long time, he has buddies that have been around koi alonger time. He and they say that koi do not eat fish that are discernably koi. I have seen it. others have seen it.
Just because brett hasn't seen it does not prove that it does not happen. This is part of the reason i started that other thread...too many of ya live in little worlds and won't recognise that there is alot more out there than you know. And many of you beleive you know it all. This hobby is entrenched in anecdotal information and reverence of people that do have some of the knowledge, and just as you all are portraying the internet as having alot of disinformation each and everyone of us has some. but the thing is when i am wrong alot of the "pillars" in the koi community and their "students" lock arms and refuse to be open to fresh ideas and even logic.
more often than not i am treated in a condescending manner for just thinking and saying what I have learned.
i respect JasPR and Steve..but they haven't seeked the truth. More often their quest has been to learn what others say is the truth. That's a great place to start. But a poor place to finish. And to dismiss someone that presents a logical argument is not helping the hobby but infact hurts it and retards its growth.
it isn't any fun taking on JasPR and some of his boot-lickers but when I have learned things thta differ with what is being espouse I am the kind of guy that will say what he sees as wrong.
And quite frankly i won't put it in a manner that the Royalty of the US Koi Nation wants to be told...
About 95% of the time I agree with them. About 4% of the time I don't but do not have the information or logic to show how thye are incorrect.
But the 1% of the time they and I disagree and I have thought it through and can see the logic in what I believe, or have facts to prove my point I will speak up.
And then the little non-thinking lackies start yipping, and the Big boys puff out their chests and start attacking me and not the proof i present.
Honestly, if I didn't love the truth so Much I wouldn't bother.
I am actually doing a service to the koi community by presenting a conflicting point of veiw...a much better, and healthier activity than those thta like to snipe at me and have nothing more to add.
So now I will go and post some more information i have thought about concerning an aspect that has re-surfaced in the topic concerning Koi eating koi.

[schildkoi]

Quote: you left off the important fact that these fry were 1-2 inches long

First off Luke, I didn't leave trhat point off, YOU DID.

Second, 2" fry? I don't think so Lukie.

Oh, one more thing......"There's no Koi under the ice!"

The rest is simply Blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada

Steve

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by schildkoi First off Luke, I didn't leave trhat point off, YOU DID. Second, 2" fry? I don't think so Lukie. Oh, one more thing......"There's no Koi under the ice!" The rest is simply Blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada Steve

I reckon that "Blah blah blah " thing must be a normal occurence in your head....
if you go back and have the tenacity to read what you quoted I wrote I refer to the fry as 1-2 inchers.
So first off..you have a problem reading.

[koiczar]

IMHO, the best source of learning is a good pair of "OPEN EARS"! All the rest is wasted if not for this fact. Most of us, including myself here, have 'SELECTIVE LISTENING". That includes reading and absorbing the written word. Of course, you have to sort through some real cowsh#$ sometimes to get to the heart of what someone has said or written. But, the fact remains, there still may be/was some truth in there. It's up to us to "learn" how to decipher it.

Here's a good example - and Steve and Luke - don't get me in the middle of all this between you two -it's merely to prove my point in an exercise.

Luke posted a statement that he had actually seen 1-2" fry get eaten by some larger koi. Brett said he'd never seen this particular behavior (does that make it fact or fiction)? Steve said Luke had left off the info about the size of the fry - HE DIDN'T - Steve just didn't see it(?) in Luke's post on page 6. So the discussion continued and Steve based his further opinion on the subject based on non-absorption of the written word. This is how the story goes around the table and when it gets back to the original story teller, it sounds nothing like it was originally.

I'm no longer giving feedback about the exercise above. This is just MHO. Good discussion is just that, an exchange of ideas, beliefs and facts. To challenge these things is healthy, when done in the right way. To talk down to someone who has an idea or needs info because they don't know something/or new to hobby, is to make them shy away from the boards and revert back to books/magazines and the like and never get the opportunity to get the most updated info available-from people who do know the right information. I know, this board is for people who are SERIOUS KICHI AND NOT BEGINNERS. Well, if the teachers here were really teaching, they wouldn't separate the two as this will make for more KICHI to take our place when we're no longer able to enjoy this hobby and all it's wonderful facets and life experiences it can teach us.

Sorry, I had to get on my soap box as I am frustrated by reading so many previous threads that have turned sour because of some posts/posters and their condescending behavior towards others. (Nothing to do with this thread). It isn't necessary. If you don't like what's said, simply don't add to the text of that thread. We're all here to learn more about this hobby and I'm sure others would be more participative if they din't feel intimidated by some.

Well, let's see how bad I get bashed for this post. All I ask is that you "read and listen" to what was said before responding. If I'm out of line, tell me. It won't be the first/last time in my life - LOL

Mike

[koiczar]

IMHO, the best source of learning is a good pair of "OPEN EARS"! All the rest is wasted if not for this fact. Most of us, including myself here, have 'SELECTIVE LISTENING". That includes reading and absorbing the written word. Of course, you have to sort through some real cowsh#$ sometimes to get to the heart of what someone has said or written. But, the fact remains, there still may be/was some truth in there. It's up to us to "learn" how to decipher it.

Here's a good example - and Steve and Luke - don't get me in the middle of all this between you two -it's merely to prove my point in an exercise.

Luke posted a statement that he had actually seen 1-2" fry get eaten by some larger koi. Brett said he'd never seen this particular behavior (does that make it fact or fiction)? Steve said Luke had left off the info about the size of the fry - HE DIDN'T - Steve just didn't see it(?) in Luke's post on page 6. So the discussion continued and Steve based his further opinion on the subject based on non-absorption of the written word. This is how the story goes around the table and when it gets back to the original story teller, it sounds nothing like it was originally.

I'm no longer giving feedback about the exercise above. This is just MHO. Good discussion is just that, an exchange of ideas, beliefs and facts. To challenge these things is healthy, when done in the right way. To talk down to someone who has an idea or needs info because they don't know something/or new to hobby, is to make them shy away from the boards and revert back to books/magazines and the like and never get the opportunity to get the most updated info available-from people who do know the right information. I know, this board is for people who are SERIOUS KICHI AND NOT BEGINNERS. Well, if the teachers here were really teaching, they wouldn't separate the two as this will make for more KICHI to take our place when we're no longer able to enjoy this hobby and all it's wonderful facets and life experiences it can teach us.

Sorry, I had to get on my soap box as I am frustrated by reading so many previous threads that have turned sour because of some posts/posters and their condescending behavior towards others. (Nothing to do with this thread). It isn't necessary. If you don't like what's said, simply don't add to the text of that thread. We're all here to learn more about this hobby and I'm sure others would be more participative if they din't feel intimidated by some.

Well, let's see how bad I get bashed for this post. All I ask is that you "read and listen" to what was said before responding. If I'm out of line, tell me. It won't be the first/last time in my life - LOL

Mike

[schildkoi]

Yep Mike,
I did miss that, My apoligies to Luke for that.

But, now let's consider something. A "koi" is not a "fry" at 2 inches, it is a koi. You could define the difference in a number of ways but in any manner I can think of, at 2 inches they are no longer fry. Koi will in fact eat fry. They will not eat (knowingly) eat other koi. Now you and or others can buy into Luke's logic but I think I will stick with Brett on this one.

For the record, I have seen large koi suck in smaller koi when attempting to eat food (pellets). Funny how they spit the smaller koi back out. Perhaps what Luke is says that he sees with a 2" KOI is the mistaken ingestion of a smaller Koi? Do you perhaps think that that is a possibility and Brett may be correct?

Mike, as for your statement of:

Quote: That includes reading and absorbing the written word. Of course, you have to sort through some real cowsh#$ sometimes to get to the heart of what someone has said or written. But, the fact remains, there still may be/was some truth in there. It's up to us to "learn" how to decipher it.

Its kind of hard for people to "learn how to decipher it" if no one challenges the "cowsh#$". I guess the real question is who is spewing the "cowsh#$", Brett, a respected proffesional with a degree and years of experience in the field or Luke? Hmmmmm, tough call to make there.

On the other hand, Luke may have learned how to measure koi from someone in N. Florida and the real size then would have been about 3/4" and a fry...easily taken as food by a koi and Brett still would be correct.

Steve

[Eugeneg]

.

Well, let's see how bad I get bashed for this post. All I ask is that you "read and listen" to what was said before responding. If I'm out of line, tell me. It won't be the first/last time in my life - LOL

Mike
You have a lot of spare time on your hands use it wisely
Regards
Eugene

[KoiCop]

There you go again, Luke, confusing brain farts with logic, what you see with science and how you interpreted what Brett said with what he no doubt meant when he said it.

In other words, you ain't Darwin and your Eureka! moment would seem to be common knowledge to most experienced hobbyists (other than you)?

Cannibalism among certain sized koi is common -- but koi don't eat koi.

How can both be true?

Just consider that the controlling factor is recognition; recognition by the eater that the eatee is another koi. And that doesn't happen until both reach certain sizes and behave in certain ways. The fact that you recognize them as koi is irrelevant. It's the fish-eyed view that counts.

I don't know what the respective magic numbers are. Maybe Brett or Brady will chime in?

But until the bigger koi "know better" and the little ones "grow some," they're free lunch.

(Just some random reflexive yipping from one of the boot-licking little non-thinking lackies you disparaged above. )