Elbagin as a dip ?

[CazithKoi]

Anyone have any first hand experience on this vs treating the whole QT or pond? IF so numbers you used? and for how long?

TIA!

[Nancy M.]

Quote: Originally Posted by CazithKoi Anyone have any first hand experience on this vs treating the whole QT or pond? IF so numbers you used? and for how long? TIA!

Why are you thinking of using elbagin as a dip?

[JasPR]

??? Elbagin for treating what? JR

[Nancy M.]

We have used Elbagin @ .5% in conjunction with salt @ .5, on stressed fish, fish with Ammonia burns. I don't see what purpose using it as a dip would be?

[CazithKoi]

fellow ponder and friend had a 100 g bag of it he never used...he knew I was expecting some fish so he gave it to me...my thinking was just that..."thinking" if for some reason I needed it for say a bacterial infection down the road I would rather use it as a dip vs QT treatment...my understanding was that it can do a number on beneficial bacteria in larger amounts..

.I had planned on adding a bit to the QT before I add the fish but the dip was purely thinking for down the road IF something were to arise....From my understanding little is known about what its make up is so really just trying to learn more about it and its uses

[JasPR]

I see. Elbagin is not really strong enough or even able to get to an infection in a koi once it is full blown. The way an infection works, is by the invasion of bacteria cells into the skin layers. So topical treatment is only meaningful in the most early stages of infection. Typically this is when we are unaware of it's presence.
This is not to say 'topical' is completely without value. But it would have to be part of an overall 'plan of attack'. That plan of attack would be:

1) improvement of environment, removal of parasites ( a common vector) and support of the immune system
2) an injectable antibiotic
3) a topical application of antibiotic ointment or paste, after sterilizing the ulcer or infected area with an anticeptic solution.

Elbagin is not all that effective as it is used to reduce bacteria count in water and on the surface of the skin mostly in transport and QT situations. But in an infectious episode within the pond, it is most often the case that the fish has been weakened by environmental conditions ( the same conditions that encourage large explosive numbers of an opportunistic pathogen). So dipping such a fish in a vat of elbagin and then returning it to that same environment is not effective. In triuth, it may even open the fish up to further to infection, unless the conditions have been corrected and the infected areas are 'attacked' both from above ( topical treatment) and from below ( injected antibiotics that work their way to the infection from the blood supply to that area).

Hope this helps? - JR

[MCA]

most of us use Elbagin as part of the transport water (taking fish to/from a show) or for initial QT water.

If you already know there is an infection that needs attention, time to consider tricide, topical preparatons, and perhaps injections. Much depends on the exact nature of the problem.

[KoiCop]

A bit about Elbagin:


Elbagin is an excellent mild fungicide and bactericide. Furthermore Elbagin is an ideal treatment to help prevent cross infection, for transporting fish and can be used with salt.

Other benefits of Elbagin include great de-stressor, non-aggressive and can also be used as a gill wash. Remember to switch off UV.

Elbagin is a 10% preparation of sodium nifurstyrenate (C13 H8 O5 Nna). Visually a yellow granular compound which when applied to water turns a bright yellow. Elbagin is used extensively throughout Japan to help with the safe transportation of Koi in plastic bags or transportation tanks

Elbagin is also very useful for abrasions and small wounds by sterilizing slowly, thus enabling tissue repair to take place naturally without using adverse treatments or placing Koi under anesthetic, which will also cause undue stress. Elbagin also acts as mild sedative, relaxing fish when being transported.

DOSAGE RATE:
Mix 10 grams of Elbagin per ton of water if using in a treatment tank for bacterial or antiseptic treatments. It is highly recommended to use Elbagin with salt at the rate of 0.5% (5 kilos per ton of water).

The higher the pond temperature i.e. 70 to 75 degrees the more effective Elbagin becomes.

ELBAGIN AND SALT the Elbagin calms the fish down and helps them get over the stress of the journey while the salt helps clear congestion from the gills etc.

Source: Absolute Koi website
http://www.absolute-koi.com/prod790.html

[KoiCop]

Elbagin for Transport:


I assume you stopped feeding already, if not STOP!

I do not use the "pinch" of Elbagin measurement. I mix up 0.5 gram of Elbagin in 16oz of water then add 2oz of that solution to the smaller bags and 3oz for the big girls. In my experience, Elbagin does make a big difference on how calm they are during transport.

Also, once you have them bagged, put them in a box and close it up so that it is completely dark inside. That will help calm them down as well.

For the Atlanta show, my 83cm Showa and 75cm Kohaku were bagged up for close to 8 hours and they showed no sign of stress.

Source:Henry Culpepper
http://koishack.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14421

[CazithKoi]

Thanks KoiCop for the info exactly what I was looking for.... what it actually was and some further explanation... and thanks JasPR for the quick lesson...much appreciated...

Would it be safe to compare Elbagin to say a low dose of PP in the sense that yes some beneficial bacteria will die off but should recoup quickly( of course depending on the filter capabilities)...or would one expect a large die off of beneficials if ran through filter?