Koi exist because of...

[luke frisbee]

their DNA computer program's intense proclivity towards RANDOMNESS/DIVERSITY.

You've got an idea what the koi was developed from? ...pretty much it was a black carp.
Now if a black carp can be so easily modified to have such a bizarre palate of colors then why haven't other fish been taken and done the same with?
Catfish are doitsu multi-whiskered koi, right?
they've been "domesticated" (JasPR think koi have been domesticated so i am using his definition of domestication) as well. How come we don't have 70lb blue cats in our ponds with sanke patterns? The reason is the same as why it hasn't happened in most fishes..Most fishes have a different strategy when it comes to deciding how tohave a successful "next" generation. Koi do it like carp do it..have MILLIONS of offspring within their life and have as much variety as possible and then whatever Mother nature can throw at all of their spawn from all of their spawning one or two can live to do it all over again.
RANDOMNESS within the DNA as a strategy for success.
the strategy of a black carp's population continuity is to throw all the variations possible within the given parameters of the two carp that breed...
Carp can breed and survive just about anywhere...why...because they try to throw every possible combination within their control into the next generation in an attempt that one or two will have the right genes to survive..as much color variatin, as many behaviors, as much definition in fin size and body shapes, and as much metabolic diversity as possible. All the losing combinations get eaten or die (and get eaten). Just one has to survive the conditions inwhich it is hatched and lives its life within, however the next generation might have different conditions so a carp throws all the possibilities it is limited to into the next generation as well...
through one generation's existence more carp that are greagarious might be advantaged, in the next it might be those that are timid may be the majority left when it comes time to breed....
Same with color... one year lighter carp might be less seen, but in a couple of years conditions might give the advantage to the darkest of carp..so the Variations all need to be kept within the DNA and produced in the next generation...
And one of the variations was "spots", and another is color. Neither were found to the extent that is seen in the GC's of the koi world....but look at a spawn and you could find some of the "black carp" swimming amongst "koi."

And 200yrs ago, the Japanese for some reason favored keeping the "odd" colored carp. They had to keep some adults to use for breeding the following year so why not the interesting one. Now an "interesting" food carp back then could have been as simple as having one or two lighter patches...but if the farmers kept that one then next year a few might be spawned that were perhaps more splotchy and those were more interesting, and since only a few were kept for the next year, the Splotchiest probably lived, the rest were served with rice....Culling pre-koi for koi.

So while the japanese subsitence farmer kept tapping the blackness out of his pond he didn't get rid of the basic survival repopulation strategy that for eons has been at the heart of all things CARP... make as much variation as you can in your offspring so that whatever conditions they must live in a few may survive.
But what the farmers did was allow for the overall color to shift slightly to more and more splotchiness and more and more variety in discernable colors..
IF the common carp did not have at its core to throw as much variation as genetically possible into each generation then koi would NOT exist. It is through that strategy that enough variation showed that caught the eye of the japanese Farmer and got koi started and continues to aid in the improvement in color and pattern in the koi of today, and will in the future.
This strategy is double-edged, as while it makes new and better koi it also produced a ton of crap. And always will. Koi Still have the DNA program that passes all the possible combinations of color and pattern into the next generation.As koi farmers pick the extremes out of the spawn they tap the color and patterns in that direction. However the strategy will be there until me can manage DNA on an atomic level.

[gspotmc]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee their DNA computer program's intense proclivity towards RANDOMNESS/DIVERSITY. You've got an idea what the koi was developed from? ...pretty much it was a black carp. Now if a black carp can be so easily modified to have such a bizarre palate of colors then why haven't other fish been taken and done the same with? Catfish are doitsu multi-whiskered koi, right? they've been "domesticated" (JasPR think koi have been domesticated so i am using his definition of domestication) as well. How come we don't have 70lb blue cats in our ponds with sanke patterns? The reason is the same as why it hasn't happened in most fishes..Most fishes have a different strategy when it comes to deciding how tohave a successful "next" generation. Koi do it like carp do it..have MILLIONS of offspring within their life and have as much variety as possible and then whatever Mother nature can throw at all of their spawn from all of their spawning one or two can live to do it all over again. RANDOMNESS within the DNA as a strategy for success. the strategy of a black carp's population continuity is to throw all the variations possible within the given parameters of the two carp that breed... Carp can breed and survive just about anywhere...why...because they try to throw every possible combination within their control into the next generation in an attempt that one or two will have the right genes to survive..as much color variatin, as many behaviors, as much definition in fin size and body shapes, and as much metabolic diversity as possible. All the losing combinations get eaten or die (and get eaten). Just one has to survive the conditions inwhich it is hatched and lives its life within, however the next generation might have different conditions so a carp throws all the possibilities it is limited to into the next generation as well... through one generation's existence more carp that are greagarious might be advantaged, in the next it might be those that are timid may be the majority left when it comes time to breed.... Same with color... one year lighter carp might be less seen, but in a couple of years conditions might give the advantage to the darkest of carp..so the Variations all need to be kept within the DNA and produced in the next generation... And one of the variations was "spots", and another is color. Neither were found to the extent that is seen in the GC's of the koi world....but look at a spawn and you could find some of the "black carp" swimming amongst "koi." And 200yrs ago, the Japanese for some reason favored keeping the "odd" colored carp. They had to keep some adults to use for breeding the following year so why not the interesting one. Now an "interesting" food carp back then could have been as simple as having one or two lighter patches...but if the farmers kept that one then next year a few might be spawned that were perhaps more splotchy and those were more interesting, and since only a few were kept for the next year, the Splotchiest probably lived, the rest were served with rice....Culling pre-koi for koi. So while the japanese subsitence farmer kept tapping the blackness out of his pond he didn't get rid of the basic survival repopulation strategy that for eons has been at the heart of all things CARP... make as much variation as you can in your offspring so that whatever conditions they must live in a few may survive. But what the farmers did was allow for the overall color to shift slightly to more and more splotchiness and more and more variety in discernable colors.. IF the common carp did not have at its core to throw as much variation as genetically possible into each generation then koi would NOT exist. It is through that strategy that enough variation showed that caught the eye of the japanese Farmer and got koi started and continues to aid in the improvement in color and pattern in the koi of today, and will in the future. This strategy is double-edged, as while it makes new and better koi it also produced a ton of crap. And always will. Koi Still have the DNA program that passes all the possible combinations of color and pattern into the next generation.As koi farmers pick the extremes out of the spawn they tap the color and patterns in that direction. However the strategy will be there until me can manage DNA on an atomic level.

whatever lukie

[MikeM]

I agree with much of your post, but have to point out that in natural carp populations the degree of variability is rather subtle... but notable differences in coloration etc do exist between segregated natural/naturalized populations. It is the mixing of carp populations and selective breeding (the European doitsu crossed with Japanese wagoi is an extreme example) that produces increased variability in offspring. The selective breeding of the rather rare truly different individual in a 'natural' population is what appears to have occurred in Niigata. Once recessive genes are allowed to express themselves, the opportunity for more recessive expression and mixing of recessive traits increases.

You should have come to my talk at CFKS. You might not have agreed with some of my thoughts, but it would have been fun to discuss.

[luke frisbee]

G-spot.
Your name saids it all....are you koicop's wife?

MikeM,
i wanted to, but there was so much I had to do and see.
I also missed Joe White's talk about going to japan which is why I actually bought the Seminar Pass. Sorry.

I'd love to come over and see your pond. If you ever have a few koikichi over...oh wait...um hmmm..
perhaps you could tell me when you'll be home and no one will be offended by my presence.
And Of course the invitation is open to ANYONE to drop by and see Lakeluke and have a chat..I even keep beer in the house. Just don't espect it to be as clean as your Momma's house.

[luke frisbee]

MikeM,
I agree with you EXCEPT (lol) that the oddball koi are quite common in wild populations but get "naturally culled" extremely early...and only the rare one survived to be "captured" by man.

[gspotmc]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee G-spot. Your name saids it all....are you koicop's wife? MikeM, i wanted to, but there was so much I had to do and see. I also missed Joe White's talk about going to japan which is why I actually bought the Seminar Pass. Sorry. I'd love to come over and see your pond. If you ever have a few koikichi over...oh wait...um hmmm.. perhaps you could tell me when you'll be home and no one will be offended by my presence. And Of course the invitation is open to ANYONE to drop by and see Lakeluke and have a chat..I even keep beer in the house. Just don't espect it to be as clean as your Momma's house.

Luke,
I deal with people like you daily. Maybe you should be my bitc@@@@@. Ape man

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by gspotmc Luke, I deal with people like you daily. Maybe you should be my bitc@@@@@. Ape man

maybe I should you lil tart!

[KoiCop]

Let's see if I've got this figured out, Luke. You got your "koi under the ice" ideas from watching March of the Penguins, right?

So did you get your ideas about koi DNA from watching The Jungle Book?

Hey, don't forget to watch The Bee Story; ya might get some good ideas re: koi pond building.

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by KoiCop Let's see if I've got this figured out, Luke. You got your "koi under the ice" ideas from watching March of the Penguins, right? So did you get your ideas about koi DNA from watching The Jungle Book? Hey, don't forget to watch The Bee Story; ya might get some good ideas re: koi pond building.

Koicop,
you're stalking again....

And I don't have time to correct Steve everytime he misreads something....or doesn't apply logic.
I never intimated that koi were under the ice in the Mud ponds that were in the photos. I did mention a "natural lake" but then again i don't know how "natural lake" was turned into "the mud ponds in the pics"
When i referenced that I was wrong about how snow behaved on those mud ponds i said i was incorrect about that. it is still a common phenomenon for snow to be kept off of flat open surfaces by even a light wind, but i can only deal with so much...what was that quaint saying?

[gspotmc]

Quote: Originally Posted by luke frisbee maybe I should you lil tart!

Luke,
Remember you started it. Don't be nagging (for girls/ women) on me. OOOH I forgot your my bitc@@@@ now. By the way by calling me lil tart aren't you referring to yourself. You have a big head but a brain sized peanut in it. You are just like SH and HAH. Taking whatever people wrote and taking it out of context.
Michael