Momotaro Sanke vs McCann Sanke

[Lam Nguyen]

Quote: Originally Posted by l113892 I'm still confused because Matsunosuke is a magoi based line. Are you making a distinction because the "magoi" was used much later than Sakai's original Matsunosuke? In other words, does it have to do with how many generations back you have to go to trace the magoi breeding?

I, too, am confused about the magoi line versus the matsunosuke line. My understanding of the concept is that ALL nishikigoi came from magoi and that the matsunosuke line was introduced recently by Toshio Sakai himself. Therefore, the matsunosuke line does have magoi influence. What I am curious to know is how did he derive this matsunosuke line, a line in which the koi seem to grow so much length that they are like "toothpicks" during their early years? Also, if this Matsunosuke line is so famous, then why aren't other breeders using it? Again, curious mind seeking knowledge!

[l113892]

"...if this Matsunosuke line is so famous, then why aren't other breeders using it?"


Many, many breeders use the Matsunosuke line including Igarashi Kazuto, Yagenji, Torazo, Shintaro, Maruju Tanaka and many others. I don't know that you could complete for a GC at the AJS without Matsunosuke somewhere in the genetic heritage- the fish just wouldn't acheive the size to compete.

[gspotmc]

Mike M.
I like Matt Sanke better than the Momo. The pattern seems to be more interesting. And it would look good on a 30 inch fish. It will be a good learning process for everyone here at KB. A japanese import and a locally bred koi both carrying matsunosuke lineage.

[gspotmc]

Toshio Sakai (Matsunosuke)seems to be famous with European dealers. However here in California. He does'nt seem to be that famous. I know that only 2 dealers that carries his fish, Russell Peters from Norcal. And David Kim from Socal 16 in to 22 in. I don't see any other dealer here in California selling his koi aside from the two. Can any one put some info on this since we're already talking about the matsunosuke lineage.

[l113892]

"Can any one put some info on this since we're already talking about the matsunosuke lineage."

What info. are you seeking?

[koiczar]

I will try to add some info to this for what it's worth

First, the Matsunosuke line was created by Toshiyuke and Toshio's father. When he passed on, Toshiyuke being the oldest took over the original farm in Niigata. Toshio moved to Isawa roughly 40 years agao and started his own business. There, he began to try innovative approaches to adding some variances to the original bloodlines. As his Sanke were the most famous line at the time, he added magoi blood back to improve genetic strength for health and growth characteristics. His new line became so famous in all the regions that many other breeders began using his line to add the size factor to what they were already doing to try to keep up. MikeP, I don't know for sure about Torazo's use of this bloodline as he has moved away from breeding a lot of Sanke anymore and is concentrating more on Showa and Kohaku with some Shiro mixed in.

About 25 years ago now, Toshio Sakai again began experimenting with Magoi by mixing it into his Showa lines. He wanted to improve the Sumi and Beni and also the skin quality as he felt it was lacking in Showas. It took 20 years to develop what you see today, including the Marazome Kiwa on Sumi which he is now recognized as the "inventer"of. What he has been succesful at is improved body lines, very thick color production and outstanding skin quality of sheen and lustre. Pictures just don't seem to do these fish justice. They must be seen in person as the skin quality just doesn't completely come through on photos. The sumi is so thick that it seems to be built on top of everything giving a very vivid 3D look to the depth of it. The growth is also improving tremendously and I don't think we've been privy to seeing his best as of yet.

Keep in mind, Matsunosuke has two different lines, with and without Magoi blood. When you see the two in person, it's obvious that he has been successful with his breeding with Magoi blood. I have two of his Showa, one is Ake-Yonsai and 29" and the other, purchased last month is a small Nisai at 13". I also have a Kohaku with Magoi blood that is Nisai and about 15". We'll see how well they do under my care!?

Mike

[l113892]

I did see Sanke at Torazo this past October. My notes suggest that Torazo uses his own Torazo bloodline, along with Matsunosuke & Sadazo for his Sanke production. Given the history associated with the Torazo bloodline- I would find it unlikely that he would discontinue Sanke production.

[MikeM]

MikeP: My reference to one of them being Magoi-blooded may be wrong. Both may be. I cannot say that the Momotaro Sanke does not have Magoi in it. I do not know the pedigree. Like the other Mike posted, Matsunosuke Sanke pre-date Toshio Sakai re-introducing Magoi genes. But none of us are interested in a semantical discussion. Even after Magoi was introduced, there was crossing out to other lines to improve color, body shape, sumi, pigment thickness, particularly by other breeders who introduced the evolving Matsunosuke genetics into their lines. So we get everything mixed together. What appealed to me about the Momotaro Sanke is that she has so much of the classic Matsunosuke look about her, but I have no idea what all has gotten mixed into her. I referred to the McCann Sanke as Magoi-blooded because she is just a step removed from the Magoi line Sakai has maintained. BTW, I see that the NKF website does not list the Louisville Show. My bad on that, too.

Gspotmc: I'd like to know where all of Sakai's production goes. It's really rare to see his Sansai in the U.S. My impression is that the Japanese market consumes his best production. But, I also do not see much from Dianichi, Shintaro, and several of the other big name breeders. I think the high-spending Asian markets get first choice these days.

[gspotmc]

Mike M
That's a very interesting question. I bought a tosai (matsunosuke) from Russell Peters last year. He brought in a couple of nisai and sansai (Matsunosuke) last year that were presold. But we can see that at some european dealers website that they have high end sansai and yonsai of Toshio's line. As far as Dainichi is involve I know that some good friends of mine from the Philippines have been waiting for 2 years to get real tategoi from him. Shintaro's mostly goes to european collectors. Maybe in the next year or two in a show in Nrocal they will start showing up(matsunosuke). I hope they come out in the best condition in the next coming years.

[l113892]

One reason we don't see more Sakai(Isawa) koi is that you don't have the concentration of breeders in Isawa as you do in Niigata/Nagaoka. So, you must purchase enough boxes from Sakai and maybe Sakuma and Maruyama to make the shipping costs worthwhile. In Niigata, you have a dealer/breeder or two like Oomo that speaks good English and will handle the shipping. Not quite as easy in Isawa.