Tosai Growth Rate

[Lam Nguyen]

I have read a number of very good posts on average/expected growth rates of koi at different ages, but to my knowledge, these posts have not addressed the growth rates of tosai that did not make the grade and that were kept in tight concrete ponds to be colored up and sold as tosai in the fall or as ake nisai the following spring. These koi are anywhere from 6 to 10 inches while their tategoi siblings are about 10 to 14 inches. My question is, because these koi were kept in tight quarters and their growth was stunted, do you guys think that they will will ever catch up with their tategoi siblings?

[luke frisbee]

No...
I believe that koi growth is comparable to sailing...
if you stop it takes awhile to start back up and you can never get to where you would have been if you didn't stop.
(Yes that's a little simple analogy and their are times where waiting on a differentwind direction and taking a different heading will get you there BEFORE the imaginary sailboat that never stopped.)

but then to bring up what I totally imagine based on me staring at koi and thinking and thinking what the heck is happening...
Some koi just do not grow fast in the beginning ( I call em "bottom-huggers because they stay at the bottom of the pond..this also slows their growth..till they leave) , BUT they can takeover their faster -growing siblings in a couple of years...
it is often that THOSE koi also end up in the "too slow-growing to keep another year" tank...

So I guess the answer is "no" except in the case where the genetics of the individual koi are such that it would grow slow in the beginning and then "perhaps" grow just a sit was going to in a crowded tank, and might be able to "take-off" after being purchased and placed in an environment conducive to fast growth...so
well
"no" except...

[Lam Nguyen]

Thanks for the analogy, Luke. Koi growth is a pretty fascinating subject in that they don't follow the more predictable growth curves of other species. If what you are saying is true, that these tosai will most likely not achieve the kind of growth that their tategoi siblings have achieved, then this is perhaps another reason why a kichi hobbyist should not invest in tosai, and if they do then they should buy it directly from the breeders.

[Arthur]

Lam,

In Niigata tosai are packed very tight in greenhouse ponds for the Winter, so tight that you cannot see the water in the pond for the fish swimming at the surface. They typically stay in such quarters for 5 months. During that period they grow very little.

Now, if it were true that such treatment stunt the koi growth for life, how do the breeders in niigata produce koi over 3' ???

Arthur

[luke frisbee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Arthur Lam, In Niigata tosai are packed very tight in greenhouse ponds for the Winter, so tight that you cannot see the water in the pond for the fish swimming at the surface. They typically stay in such quarters for 5 months. During that period they grow very little. Now, if it were true that such treatment stunt the koi growth for life, how do the breeders in niigata produce koi over 3' ??? Arthur

hey Arthur,
I'll answer that as easily and plainly as I can...
THAT is the NORMAL thing to do... ALL the todai at that time of the year are "cramped"...a;lthough the higher the percieved worth the less they are cramped....
it is the tosai that are kept crowded AFTER that period that get behind in growing...

[JasPR]

The answer is yes, tosai can catch up. This statment changes however every year they get older until the 'damage' is more or less permenant. Koi are inderterminate growers but the % of grow slows with age.
As you say, breeders crowd them all in winter and they all catch up in summer.
And as Momotaro said, in that famous experiment of his- the siblings of 'pushed koi' were notably smaller after one year. But during the summer, the wintered tosai caught up to their larger babied siblings.

Just remember that at the end of the day, a koi can not grow faster than, or GREATER than, it's genetic limitations. So knowing that, a koi can only really be held back by environmental factors as long as they exist. - JR

[RogerL]

Not sure about "catch-up" but they sure can close the gap. Genetics undoubtedly play a big part, but when moved to an environment conducive to growth I have seen some significant growth spurts.

Case-in-point is a yamabouki ogon that I picked-up from Brady (my first "real" fish) a few years back. I think it was an "old" nisai at the time (Maybe sansai - can you remember Brady?). Two of its siblings were in the ponds of club members and probably at around 20" while this fish was, perhaps, 9". After 2 years she's still not quite as big as her siblings, but she is within an inch or two and when last measured last fall she was pushing 24".

I'm not saying this is always the case, but I certainly believe it can happen.

Roger

[Eugeneg]

[quote=Arthur;110586]Lam,

In Niigata tosai are packed very tight in greenhouse ponds for the Winter, so tight that you cannot see the water in the pond for the fish swimming at the surface. They typically stay in such quarters for 5 months. During that period they grow very little.

Now, if it were true that such treatment stunt the koi growth for life, how do the breeders in niigata produce koi over 3' ???

Arthur
The fish that are tightly packed are generally the poorer fish . If a breeder thinks that they will reach 36in which is very rare you can bet that they will not be crowded and receive special care as by nisai they could be worth more than a whole packed pond often 20g A nine month tosai that is 15in and has potential could fetch 5g and grow to 34in possibly . It could have a sister that is just 12in even high quality that would fetch $500 and yet another simmilar and just 10 in that is not likely to reach above 28in for as low as 300 then there could be quite a few that had poor skin quality or poor pattern as well as 6in that would go for less than a 100 . All these being from one pairing The breeders know their own fish and you get what you pay for ,
Regards
Eugene

[MikeM]

I have a few koi that I acquired from Japan as "nisai", but in mid-August. That is, they missed their third season in the mud, held in inventory by the breeder. (These were koi priced above my budget, which became affordable when the breeder slashed his price to move the inventory and free space for the next harvest.) In each instance, they arrived in thin condition and not much different in length than when measured the prior Fall. And, in each instance, within a couple of weeks of being placed in warm Florida water, they were gorging themselves and putting on a growth spurt. It is impossible to know whether the same fish would do better in the long run if never exposed to a limiting environment for a prolonged period. I sense that in my situation the fish simply had a very long winter, and enjoyed its third growing season in the August-December time frame. I do not think they were set back at all... except they did not get the benefit of a mudpond.

A couple of years ago there was a thread about the effects of koi being shipped in late Fall to the southern hemisphere where summer was beginning rather than winter. Interesting adjustments for the koi to make.