is there anymore to this story ?

[mrbradleybradley]

I read this as a part of an article on koi tonight and thought maybe someone knows some more about this story as the author is unknown and there was no other contact details

Quote "
There is an ancient Japanese legend that if a koi swims all the way up the Yellow River to a point called Dragon Gate, and swims up the waterfall at that point, it will turn into a Dragon which shows the measure of perseverance and triumph over adversity that it possess"

[JasPR]

carp not koi

[PapaBear]

And I thought the story was from Chinese folklore...

[Fishbreeder]

The Yellow River is in China. I heard the story many times and did some more investigation.

For one thing that river is known as "China's Sorrow" a literally millions upon millions of people have been killed in its valley during huge floods. The river is both naturally and artificially raised up in its lower bed from siltation and the construction of protection levees over thousands of years. This precarious situation encourages devestating floods.

The Dragon Gate (apparently there are many such in China) is a series of rapids in the upper river where carp come from the estuaries and move upriver in spring to spawn.

Approximately 2000 years ago Chinese Emperor Liu Xiu was at The Dragon Gate on the Yellow River and saw a red carp jump over the falls. He had his men catch and cook the carp for him. Upon eating the fish he became more vigorous, healthier and stronger. The dish become popular and is still prepared today. The carp is boiled and presented, head up, upon a bed of vegetables arranged to model The Dragon Gate. The cooking makes the carp red and it tastes of sweet and sour. Apparently carp from the Yellow River are particularly tasty (I never ate a carp I thought was "tasty").

The annual appearance at the gate by carps from downriver and thier powerful climb upriver and over the Dragon Gate symbolizes strength and perseverance. Only some of the carp make it over, only the strongest, and as they clear the gate they turn into flying dragons.

I find this story particularly captivating and inspirational. Much of my life is spent on rivers, especially large ones like The Brazos and The Trinity and I identify strongly.

Brett

[JasPR]

Right, but the Japanese are the greatest 'borrowers' mankind has ever known. Their early links to China and it's religions, customs and written language were all exported to Japan thru cultural exchange and trade.
What is interesting is how the myths , regions and customer were integrated into Japanese culture. It is not unlike how christianity was evolved from paganism, Roman and Greek myths.

So the Carp and the symbolism is very much Japanese although it is definitely based in Chinese culture. - JR

[carolyn swanson]

Or perhaps it's also one of those fancy metaphor things. The koi represents the Japanese people in their quest for domination of the Chinese and if the koi makes it to the goal, China would be theirs.

[MikeM]

LOL. I expect the metaphor was used in that fashion at some point.

Until the Meiji Restoration, Japanese looked to China as the source of learning and fine culture, but adapted what was acquired to fit the unique Japanese view of the world and inter-personal relations. In many respects, it was the colonization of China through western countries' 'zones of influence' that set the stage for the Meiji Restoration and its determination to industrialize. If so great a center of civilization as China could be so treated, Japan would adapt the western ideas to maintain Japan's control of its own destiny. The fact that Japan made such rapid industrial progress in the 50 years following the fall of the Tokugawa shogunate has a lot to do with koi. The great Taisho Exposition of 1914 was a celebration of Japan's progress. And it gave cause for the people of Niigata to display the 28 (27?) fancy carp Crown Prince Hirohito admired. We cannot know how long it would have been for the peasants of Niigata to be able to earn income from their indulgence if that industrialization had not been undertaken. If the limited market for koi had not developed in the 1920s and 30s, the disaster of World War II might have wiped out what little there would have been. Of course, there would not have been a war in the Pacific if the Japanese had not adopted the western ideas of colonialism as well as the western focus on industrialization and projecting military power. ...Perseverance against adversity. A very Japanese notion of ideal conduct.

[JasPR]

Great Post my friend until this part---

Of course, there would not have been a war in the Pacific if the Japanese had not adopted the western ideas of colonialism

read the very interesting history of Japanese 'invisible conquest' of Okinawa. It's an amazing example of Japanese colonization of a possession of China! I think I recommended this book to you before? But if you get a chance, I think you will enjoy reading ' The Last Samurai ', the life and battles of Saigo Takamori written by Mark Ravina. There is some facinating research on the occupation of Okinawa in there . Enjoy! JR

[markgardner]

Originally Posted by MikeM

And it gave cause for the people of Niigata to display the 28 (27?) fancy carp Crown Prince Hirohito admired.

According to Fujita San in Nishikigoi Mondo it was 23.

[Fishbreeder]

Hmmmm.....

I spent many years touring old Meiji castles, learning to speak Japanese, and learing Japanese culture and history. Sure I was just a kid, but my buddies were Japanese as were my many sensei.

One thing I know for sure is that the Japanese did not need Westerners to teach them about imperealism. I'm sure like many other things, they learnt that from the Chinese and Mongolians.

I weren't old enough to attend the Taisho Exposition, but I was in Osaka at The World Expo in 1968, on the day of greatest human density ever. Another thing I know for sure is that without WWII there would be no koi trade.

Besides the American Occupation, a few other important things came from the war. One was the invention of the plastic bag. Without those two occurrences there would be no koi trade.

In Niigata Prefecture there is a statue of Admiral Yamamoto. As important to Japanese history as he was, there is another held in highest esteem, just beneath the very Emperor himself, General Douglas MacArthur. Wihtout him there would be no modern Japan and no koi trade.

Now, I don't rightly remember a stroy about carps turning into dragons from my childhood in Japan. However, I do remember putting out koi nobori, one for each member of the family on Boy's Day (now I understand its "Children's Day" politically correct). The koi being a symbol of strength and fertility.

It would be easy enough to see the same stroy taken from China, given a Japanese spin, and the fish a koi instead of a carp, etc.

Seen a tattoo on a fella's back of a samurai riding on the back of a koi, going over the waterfall.

Gotta git,

Brett