Should we judge a Breeder by his track record at Shows?

[aquitori]

Should we judge a Breeder by his track record at Shows? Meaning(as hobbyist): should we base our want of a specific breeder because his fish have done well at Japanese Shows or should we base our judgement on the quality he produce, but never shows or done well at Japanese Shows.

[JasPR]

I say-- yes. The commercial show is a form of advertisement for a breeder. It is credibility. So if a breeder can win a major show it can be assummed that his quality is high. I think what you hint at is the trap we tend to fall into that says if the label is on the fish then the fish is by definition a good fish. Which is certainly NOT true. Great breeders sell junk too. The nature of a spawn is that only a small percentage of fish will excel.
With with all due respect, I would change the question to:

As a hard fast rule : Is the lower end of a great breeder's production STILL better than the upper end of a modest or unknown breeder's production? And if I could also provide an answer---- no. - JR

[l113892]

I agree with Jim. If you have the resources to buy the best fish, go to the breeder with the best record at koi shows. If you have the resources to buy the best fish, go to the dealer with the best record at koi shows. If you don't have the resources or you're not going to spend the big bucks, then it might be wise to shop around and find where your dollar/yen will take you the furthest.

[Brutuscz]

Quote: Originally Posted by aquitori Should we judge a Breeder by his track record at Shows? Meaning(as hobbyist): should we base our want of a specific breeder because his fish have done well at Japanese Shows or should we base our judgement on the quality he produce, but never shows or done well at Japanese Shows.

The First breeder I thought of when I read this was Suda koi farms. I rarely see their name on the winning koi at shows (in nichirin, koi bito, koi-carp and koiusa magazines). But....Teradomari and shinoda used suda stock to begin their breeding program of ginrin kohaku and doitsu gosanke. I have seen teradomari and shinoda win many awards in the magazines. So, do you desire koi from Suda..even though they specifically haven't won the big shows? Your damn right I do!!
Also...Omosako might be cleaning up with shiro utsuri at shows...but I have seen several from Sekko that were excellent. This is regardless of show placement.
Good is good and I don't always care about the pedigree!!!

[jbolding]

I believe that breeders who so well in shows get a lot of attention as do their bloodlines. Thereby more information about these breeders and how the koi they produce generally progress is more readily available. I believe that for the average Koi kichi in America buying from a known bloodline or breeder has it's benefits in that if you do your homework and buy a decent fish you are buying a "more" known result, and are there for able to better predict a kois future size, beni quality, shiro, sumi, etc, etc. That being said it's obviously not any kind of guarantee as every breeder produces chuppa as well.

[Fishbreeder]

I began with fish from Suda many, many years ago. I still have many of them as well as some of thier descendants. No GC (yet) but many prizewinners. Shiros I've bred were from Omosako, also many prizes. Same with koi I've gotten from others like Isa, Mano, Hiroi, etc.

I agree the koi show is indeed a measure of success, but not the only one.

A story I heard once was that somebody in Japan publishes a "Winner's list" with ratings of breeders similar to what you would see about greyhound or race horse breeders and trainers. You can use this as a "tip sheet" of where to buy supposedly winning koi.

There was a time when such prizes and trophies seemed really important to me. I think a high point was when a koi I'd bred won "National Baby Champion" at the first ever National koi show (Philadelphia 1996-I think). Nowadays the only thing left is the one that has eluded me and others to this point. I got a roomfull of trophies my customers have given me over the years, not a one for GC.

Brett

[luke frisbee]

SHOULD WE?
or DO WE?

We do.
and the reason koi breeders are judged from their show records is that not 1 out of 100 koi hobbyists can tell a good koi form a great koi.
So the hobbyist needs a "source" of what koi are good...enter the JasPR...
A man that will give his OPINION of what koi is the best outta a group brought to a particualr site. And Koi Hobbyists appreciate that.
i consider it to be the mirror market of the "art" world.
"Art" is what an art JUDGE saids is ART....lots of good paintings of thiings out there...but it ain't top shelf art till the art Critics say it is noteworthy.

the upside to this is that an art buyer can buy what they like... yet when it also carries the art critic's approval it provides peace of mind to the collector..it validates his ability to appreciate "fine koi" as well and denotes he owns high-quality koi.
koi buyers can't trust breeders or dealers as they are in it for the cashola...at least to some degree..the only impartial sources are koi judges and your friends...some of them really do know something...usually not anything about koi though.

[dick benbow]

It's been a while since Toshio Sakai's fish have taken top honors. Here lately it's been a Sakai of Hiroshima show at the national..... Yet I keep acquiring more Matsunosuke koi, hmmmm?

Ultimately you must be able to select a top fish based on your own ability to determine it's value. Buying a name doesn't necessarily gurantee anything.

[Russell Peters]

Quote: Originally Posted by dick benbow It's been a while since Toshio Sakai's fish have taken top honors. Here lately it's been a Sakai of Hiroshima show at the national..... Yet I keep acquiring more Matsunosuke koi, hmmmm? Ultimately you must be able to select a top fish based on your own ability to determine it's value. Buying a name doesn't necessarily gurantee anything.

..............................

[JasPR]

I'll never forget a ginrin kohaku purchase decision ( actually I still own it!) I made. It was about six years ago now. Waddington emailed me that he had gone into a little known ginrin kohaku breeders facility that he had heard of before but admitted that he had never bought from before. He never felt too comfortable buying from guys who's stock he had not seen over a few years or had feedback on. But there he was so he stopped in to take a look. The fish looked really good. One inparticular, had great ginrin and a KILLER beni and pattern. Great white and a sound body. And the red was not the least bit weakened by the strong ginrin which is the rarest find of all! So we agreed upon a price to offer and he went back to buy the koi. The fish was not cheap as it represented this guys best three year old. We both knew I was taking a chance as neither of us had any idea how this guy's fish held up over time.
When I got the fish I knew it was a greater gamble than the strong beni would otherwise suggest. This kohaku had very strong sanke eyes- both blue eye lids ( very common) and the classic silver fern in the eye. But still, a great fish so I kept my finger's crossed. Today the fish is a bad ginrin sanke.
Koi is a form of gambling and unknown breeders have poor odds. - JR