Help with fighting the toughest stain of ick I've seen

[JasPR]

Hi Renee, so the pictures are not too clear. But I think we may be looking at a mis-diagnosis. the 'spots' look too large. Maybe carp pox? Can't tell.

Also IF you do indeed have ich , moving fish to a new 20 gallon tank to treat ( and I assume then return to the 55 gallon tank) is only introducing them to the parsites left behind in the old tank. Unless you keep them out of the 55 for a considerable time. And if you do that, you are keeping 18inches of koi in 20 gallons of water - this would lead to serious ammonia problems and bacteria problems. Looks like the proverbial 'rock and a hard spot' ! JR

[ReneeB]

I was worried about it being carp pox. But when looking a photos of it, it don't seem the same. And what my fish have they acutally "pop" and you see lil tissue from the pop. You can almost see a white grain in em. The same lil grains that are in the tail too.

I read an article on cold water ich, and it said carp pox did not appear to be able to scrape off with your finger nail. These spots look like it could be scraped off. Pox on Carp

I kept them in the 20 gallon the entire time during the treatment. The 55 gallon I kept running, but did a 80% water changed and cranked the temp to 86 degrees. I was hoping if the ick didn't have a host they would just die out. No fish have been in there since April 3rd.

Here is a better pic. Thanks again for all your help! I'm so glad to find people who know what they are talking about.

[JasPR]

Sorry to be driving you crazy but with this picture I'm now wondering also about anchor worm? Do you ever see tiny white splinters sticking out of these spots? Of the three possibilities, I'm going to move ich into last place.
This is why a microscope would be so helpful. If this were ich present we could easily see them on a slide as a large rolling dark blob with a very identifiable internal content.
If this were carp pox I would expect the warm water to cause it to disappear but stress will keep this herpes active so the 20 gallon tank would work against you as would the water quality issues.
In the future I would look into getting a rubber maid tub for these three fish with a nice filter system accumulated over time.

In light of all we have discussed, I would honestly recommend larger quarters and a very stable clean environment first and treatment second. And would definitely spend the extra money for meds and move these fish back to the 55 gallon now. JR

[ReneeB]

No worries, I'm so appreciate of your time spent helping me out.

I moved them back into the 55 gallon, and added the first dose for salt. I'll increase it over the next 36 hours, then wait 24 hours and add the quick cure.

They have a 700 gallon pond for the summer, but I don't want to put them out in that yet. The salt will kill my plants too Next year I'll have to have something bigger to winter them in, hopefully they will be healthy and bigger

Will they get better in the 55 gallon? The salt and quick cure I can easily afford for the 55g. The Life Guard was about 5 dollars a day to treat, that was where my husband starting watching my check book.

I looked really close and did not see anything hanging of them. I looked up pictures of the anchor worms, and it don't look like that. It looks like someone took a small grain of rice and put it between the skin of the tail.

The large bumps look like sacks almost, you can see lil white specs in them. Like those lil tag moles people get, it looks like I could pinch them off. They start off flat, then grow outwards in about 12 hours to a big bump, they stick out pretty far, think of a tag mole only filled with fluid, then they pop. After the one on my ghost popped, the others had some more on them.

The one I photographed has had some of the regular white spots for weeks. They don't change. Where as these big bumps go away and just leave a scar in less than a day or two.

I'm going to pick up a microscope today. I found a few sites with photos I can match what I see to. Will a swab of the area do, or do you need to remove a white spot? How would I get the best sample?

Thanks so much! I'm feeling hopeful again If I can just figure out what I'm fighting.

[JasPR]

Not sure where you are in the country but the nights will be warming up over the next few weeks. I see only one more night in the next ten days that will be back down in the 30s. So you should be ready to go outside in three weeks .
This will be tricky in that normally you want to lower your aquarium temps to room temperature over the last few weeks so that moving them out to cooler pond water is no big deal for them. As long as the change is not more than 5 degrees cooler you should be fine ( make sure you have a thermometer in the pond). pH is another simple thing to check before moving them.

But back to your current situation, the 55 should have better water quality and a live biofilter but sluggish due to having no food ( ammonia) from the fish being absent. So I'd slow feeding and avoid trying to 'grow them' in the 55 gallons of water. There is plenty of time for that in July and August out in the bigger pond.
After you have checked them for parasites under a microscope, if they are free from live parasites, then you need to lower the temps back top match the outside water temps as mentioned. Just keep cutting back the temperatures by 2 degrees a day.
As far as how to check for parasites, it is very easy. just use a cover slip ( you should buy glass slides and plastic cover slips) . You hold the cover slip between your thumb and index finger and run it down the side of the fish ( with/in direction of the scales, that is from head down towards tail) applying minimal pressure. If you do it right, you should see a slight amount of slime coat that has been collected from the scraping action. Transfer this material to a slide, add a single droplet of water from the aquarium and lower the cover slip. Now put it on the microscope stage and focus ( careful not to crack the slide!) and adjust the light, you do not want it too bright or too dim. Start with the lowest power and refocus- just look for movement, nothing more. And be patient. If you see movement change to a stronger power, and see if you can identify anything. Let us know what you see and one of us will be able to identity it. JR

[gcuss]

JR,

I've been a scraping fool lately, with little to no idea what I'm doing. The scrape part I've got down pat. However, I've never seen anything yet. (moving anyways) I've had a very suspicious speck or two that I've scoured the internet trying to identify in case it was a dead bug, but that's it. Do you need to work up to the highest power to see some of these things? Dye for the sample? Or are all somewhat visible on the low setting. The 1st two levels of magnification are clear as a bell, but I struggle trying to get the highest mag. image to come into focus. Potentially too much light?

BTW, I have no idea what mag. my microscope has. Each lens has writing:

4/0.10 - 160/0.17
10/0.25 - 160/0.17
40/0.65 - 160/0.17

Now back to the original thread... THANKS!

Grant

[ReneeB]

I was surprised to find out they moved the frost date back to April 21st in my part of Illinois. I love being out in the garden, this was good news

Ok, got my microscope and slides.... surfing around at X100 looks like rough circle shapes. They are rather dark in color. they are really missed shaped, some have lil arm looking things comping out around the edges.

There is also pill shaped clear things.

At X300 they look like smooched dog fleas. some are really dark. others are clear, but you can see lines and such in it. I'm just looking at all the islands.

At X1000 I see a bunch of tiny dark circles, then these bigger blobs are misshaped and have lines and such in them. some of the small back circles are solid, others have a a center i can kind of see.

If this is ick, is there anything in I should be looking for? I looked around at photos online, none of that looks like what I'm seeing

[gcuss]

Quote: Originally Posted by ReneeB I was surprised to find out they moved the frost date back to April 21st in my part of Illinois. I love being out in the garden, this was good news Ok, got my microscope and slides.... surfing around at X100 looks like rough circle shapes. They are rather dark in color. they are really missed shaped, some have lil arm looking things comping out around the edges. There is also pill shaped clear things. At X300 they look like smooched dog fleas. some are really dark. others are clear, but you can see lines and such in it. I'm just looking at all the islands. At X1000 I see a bunch of tiny dark circles, then these bigger blobs are misshaped and have lines and such in them. some of the small back circles are solid, others have a a center i can kind of see. If this is ick, is there anything in I should be looking for? I looked around at photos online, none of that looks like what I'm seeing

Renee,

I'm newish to the whole microscope thing as well. Mine came with a USB camera for taking pics of what you're seeing. However, I've found that my digital camera actually takes a better picture. Turn off the flash, set the camera to ISO if you have that setting, put the lens of the camera up against the eyepiece, use zoom to tighten up the fram and voila. Decent shots for posting!

Grant

[ReneeB]

I never would have thought of that, how cool, thanks!!!!

Ok, can anyone see anything in any of these?? I have not clue what I'm looking for. I can do another round if needed.

[Tamianth]

Hi Renee,

See if this helps you wth id-ing parasites:

KoiVet Message Boards - Parasite ID photos

Also, you might want to take a look at this picture too for FYI:

KoiVet.com - Mystery Bug - Common Non-Pathogen