Help with fighting the toughest stain of ick I've seen

[ReneeB]

I need to get ride of this ick, but I don't know what to try next.

Back on March 9th I saw ick on two of my blue koi. Carbon filters removed, I started treating with Ick Clear Tabs and added a little amount of salt. bout 1/2 tsp per gallon (they are in a 55 gallon wintering tank). Levels tested ok, temperate was raised to 82

I did Ick Clear Tabs with the 25% water changes through the March 11th. On March 12th I switched over and started using Quick Cure (mal green). 1 drop per gallon, ever 24 hours, doing 25% water changes before each dose. I used melifix and pimafix during this time too. I used Quick Cure from March 12th to March 18th.

March 19th, water change, then slowly started increasing the salt levels to 3tsp/gallon and heat to 84 degrees. I maintained this level with the filters running until March 30th. There was no change. I started to lower the salt levels, keeping the heat up, so I could use the Jungle Life Guard I ordered.

April 3rd I teated the fish in a "fresh" 20 gallon with the Life Guard. 1 tab/gallon. I've been treating every 24 hours ever since. Today is April 22 and they are still sick. Within the first 3 days it looked like the Ick was getting better, the large spots went away, and just the small grain looking stuff was left. The temp during the Lifeguard was around 82, water levels normal. Their condition has not changed from that. They have several white grans of "salt" just on there tail fins. And these have not changed in 18 some days.

Anyone have suggestions on how I can get them feeling better?? I don't know what my next step should be. Coppersafe? Is there a medicated food? Should I do more than 3tsp/gallon of salt with heat? I thought about have a vet remove the spots, but even thou I fish, that seems cruel. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I miss just enjoying them.

[JasPR]

Renee, don't use copper!!!!! It is very dangerous for koi especially in cooler water of unknown softness/hardness. You need to take a breath and collect some facts before proceeding.

Koi normally can cope with a low level of ich presence. But weak koi can not. And no matter how many drugs are used, the ich will not go away on very weak koi. The weak koi actually excellerates the breeding process for ich.

Ich is very easy to kill. Salt, mal green, formalin, PP will all kill stages of ich. You need to pick just one. Do not keep using different ones as they are having the effect of weaking the fish and in some cases, the environment and biofilters.

Make sure you really have the ich parasite by using a microscope to ID them. Ich also like to be additional company when other parasites are present ( that initially weakened the koi and allow the ich to establish) so make sure you are not treating for ich alone if there are other non-susceptible parasties also on the fish).
Ich does not go away all at once. The compounds kill stages of the parasite until eventually there are no breeding age adults and you break the cycle. Heat helps in this regard by inceasing the metabolism of the parasites and shorting the stages of development. So you wear them down this way. But if you can't get the heat higher, then be patient and let the treatments knock off the stages as they become vulnerable. This could take 10-15 days.

I would do a good 25% water change with chlorine free treated water, and then I would add salt ( make sure you really know the gallonage of your pond and are not underdosing as this can be a common error when treating parsites) at the rate of 30 pounds per 1000 gallons. I would let this settle in for 24 hours and then add a standard over the counter malachite green and formalin solution at the manufacture's suggested rate ( typically 100 ml per 1000 gallons).
Do not feed the fish during this treatment and try and add extra aeration. If the pond temps are below 60 F the eradication can take a while. Above 70 F and they will be gone in 10 days. If the water is cool, you might want to do a second 25-30 %water change in 7 days and repeat the treatment only this time without adding any more salt. Best of Luck, JR

[ReneeB]

Thanks for your help!!!

I did try 84 degrees with 3teas/gallon of pond salt (55 gallon winter tank) for 13 days, but then was told to use Life Guard by the dealer. He said that would cover a wide variety encase it was not ick.

I heard not to use mal green if my salt levels would be over .1%. Can I go to .3% with the quick cure and not harm them? I bought a pond hydrometer and was told by the dealer to get the specific gravity up to 1.010 (14ppt) to be the same as 3 teas/gallon. Sound right?

I didn't have the test when I was adding the salt before, but I kept a chart on it to track the levels when I did water changes. I bought the hydrometer when I got the Life Guard. This time if I learn what number to hit, I can make sure the salt is where it needs to be.

Thanks for the copper warning! The fish are eating, actually have grown in the past month also, they act healthy besides for white grains on their tails.

Thanks again for your help!

[JasPR]

Hi Renee, so if you have control over temperature do use it to speed up the process. 76 F os plenty for koi. Are you sure you are looking at ich spots?
I also noticed you are using fish aquarium products. Kinda expensive for larger ponds and often weak in dose. I'd check out some of the on-line koi dealers for some pond sized product. I like Eastern nishikigoi inc ( I think they advertise here?). But there are many others.

As far as eating goes, fish with ich that are overwhelming them usually show it in their behavior- breathing, fin movement and twitching and eventually lose of appetite. The spots you see on the tail are not too bad but you have to assume ( if it is ich) that those same number of spots are also on the gill- which is not so good!
The hydrometer is not really to valuable for salt levels for koi treatments as they are relatively low ( compared to say saltwater levels) and read such a low level that it is not easy to be accurate with a hydrometer. It is true that salt and mal green / formalin has been known to be dangerous but that is usually in very warm water. The idea of the salt is to have something to put some stages of the ich parasite in osmotic stress. Again it will not kill all stages but act as a barrier to nomal population growth.
I'd look into getting an inexpensive microscope or have a club member stop over to do a scraping for you. Does your dealer scape his fish? JR

[ReneeB]

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out!! It is very appreciated!!!

These guys are acting normal. The only spot I saw any where else but the tail fine was on the side of the body, a small sore formed, and healed within a couple days. Are there spots on the gills that I'm not seeing, or are they on the inside? I read up on ick, how it grows, drops and then spreads. If it was on the gills would it grow large enough for me to see it?

This started off looking like ick. Small white grains. Then after the struggle with it went on, the fish would develop large pimple like bumps, these would open within a day. On some I could barley see the white grains in them. The large spots seem to go away the fastest. I could not find other parasites that would behave like them that were not in the ich family. I don't think the dealer does any scraping. I'll pick up a microscope.

The pond hydrometer is from Dr. Foster & Smith and is intended for pond use. It ranges from 1.001 to 1.011 specific gravity (1-15ppt). The packages says go to 1.005 for treatment, but maintain around 1.001 to 1.003 for a "happy" pond. I just have not been able to translate specific gravity into the .3% used when reading sites. When my koi dealer said 1.010, it seemed high, but I don't know.

So stop with the Life Guard, heat is at 80 now, add 3 teaspoons of salt per gallon of water over 36 hours, (they'll be in a 55 gallon), wait 24 hours after the salt increase and then start the Quick Cure. Water changes every 5 days until clear?

[bekko]

Dude, don't give them 14ppt of salt. The usual salt dose is 3 ppt (parts per thousand) which is 0.3% or 1.0015 specific gravity.

The white spots seen in an ich infestations are not really the organism, but lesions where tissue has been destroyed by the organism. After the organism is killed it takes a few days for the tissue to heal.

I sort of agree with James. It sounds like your fish are burned out from over-medication. What they may need most is more space and better water quality.

-steve

[ReneeB]

Thanks Steve! I thought that seemed really high. I would have stuck with the salt and heat for longer than 13 days if the dealer didn't say to use Life Guard. Life Guard covers parasites, ich, and fungus. I looked all over online for what 0.3% was on this gage, thanks again!

I've been keeping a close eye on the water quality. These 3 guys have a 700 gallon pond waiting for them, if I can get them healthy enough to go out there. I bring my koi in during the winter. I've never had to deal with ich before, but it had been a couple years since I got a new koi.

Salt and quick cure - here we go.....

Do I feed them at all of the next 10 days?

Thanks again!!!

Steve - your "koink" picture is great!

[JasPR]

Ok so this is all likely 'encouraged' by crowding? How much water are they in again and how big are these three fish?
I really do suspect other parasites other than ich as the 'bumps' sound like localized infection. It is good they are healing on their own as this shows the fish's immune systems are up and running well.
The ich in the gills I was referring to are not the ones on the gill plate that you see. But under the gill plate- the gills themselves. These are very delicate and damaged by parasite activity. It is a shocking sight to see a gill clipping under a microscope and observe costia, trichodina and ich all living on and among the delicate gill structures.

At this point, go slow and steady and don't expect change for at least a week. - JR

* PS- please consider getting a microscope.

[ReneeB]

Two are blue shusui, about 6 inches. One is a mix kikokyru he is about the same size. They have their own 55 gallon I was using for the winter and did salt treatments and such before in there. I put them in a 20 gallon for the Life Guard treatment because I could not afford the cost to treat the 55 gallon with it.

The bumps start off small and white kind of cloudy, they get big overnight and 'pop'. You can see lil white grains usually just one or two. Then it clears up by the next day. Then they have the white grains elsewhere on their tail. They eat like pigs still and are active. I give them a slice of orange every other day, the really like it.

Should I find someone to scrape them to find out if this is ick before putting them through another treatment with quick cure? Or will salt and quick cure handle most parasites? I can get a microscope no problem, would one from Target or Wal-Mart work? I just don't know if I'd know what I'm looking at. I'm a computer programmer with no biology experience.

[ReneeB]

Here is a picture, sorry for the quality, fish won't hold still and I don't want to stress them by trying to pose them. You think these large bumps are something other than ick?

The bump with the arrow pointing to the right is the large one. That appeared overnight after one popped on the other guy. The other two with the arrow pointing to the left is of the small white grain looking spots. The large bumps actually raise up a bit out of the skin. The white rice looking ones appear in the tail.