Breaking Beni

[gcuss]

Hi,

I'm just curious. As a tosai, if the beni appears to be a little choppy at the tail stop is that a sign of the beni starting to break up?

Or is this not common in tosai?

Thanks

Grant

[Lam Nguyen]

Hi Grant, what do you mean by being a little choppy? Do you have a pix to illustrate? From what I learned so far I think that it really depends on a number of factors. If the tail end beni is lighter than the shoulder area, then there is a higher chance of it fading. If the sashi and kiwa are not sharp then this is also an indication of fading beni. Then there's the overall thickness of the beni and water quality and feeding regimen. I think that the most important indication of all is the bloodline of the koi in question. Just my 2 cents' worth! Now lets see what the pros have to say.

[gcuss]

Here's an example I found on E-Bay.

[MikeM]

Tosai can be hard to 'read', because you are seeing them at a moment in their relatively rapid development. If you could see the same fish a month earlier and two months earlier, how it is developing would be more clear. The one you posted has a 'blush' of red along the kiwa. Is that permanent, or a sign of fading that will progress, or the temporary remains of consolidating Hi? I cannot give you an answer from among those choices based on the photo alone. I can only give a guess, and no matter how educated the guess, it remains a guess. If you are familiar with the breeder's line and how it develops, you can be more comfortable with your guess. The breeder will have the best guess of all, but even they get surprised at times.

Given the overall look of this tosai, I am not concerned by the maruzome-type kiwa, except the blush area. The sashi, on the other hand looks fine for a tosai... not as perfectly even as would be most preferred, but it is OK. Normally Hi develops at the head first, and progresses toward the rear of the koi. Considering that along with the overall appearance of the Hi, my guess is that the Hi is still consolidating at the rear of this young koi. That is, I'm thinking the blush will go away, leaving the step with distinct kiwa... not fading Hi.

Just my guess. ....Nice pattern on this one at this size. As it grows, the pattern may seem too small; but I think it will be an attractive Kohaku a person could enjoy for quite a while.

[dick benbow]

for those who attended one of Toshio Sakai's seminars, he talked about "saw tooth" Kiwa and the indication down the line of beni failure. The rounded scales ( or marusome) is not the same, yet at the tailstop there is concern. It is hard for me to make a decision with just the one angle of the photograph. It does appear from the photo that the consistency in depth of color
is uniform throughout the steps. I do agree with Mike that this Koi's pattern will do it's best as a smaller koi and once it gets closer to 20 inches, it will not fare as well in relationship to the expanding body.

[schildkoi]

I think Mike's response is "spot on". I would tend to agree with Dick's evaluation of pattern in that it may appear fine now but too far spaced as an adult koi. BUT, as a mature koi and IF it is a she and IF she grows 30+ inches and IF she has a large bold body/conformation and IF the skin quality and depth of beni os there then the pattern would be fine and dandy. A lot of IFs but one of the Bito readers here has a very large Kohaku where all those IFs came true and even with a not so perfect pattern has ruled the day with major awards in multiple shows including GC at Las Vegas. Right Carolyn?

Steve

[JasPR]

I agree, Mike has the concept down in his explanation. The unfortunate thing about how we came to learn about beni over the years is that it was always taught within the context of pattern. Beni as an element is so often missed, like 'trees are missed when looking at the forest'.
On the other hand, Beni should not be viewed based on kiwa or sashi alone. This would be missing the forest by looking at just the borders! These are only indications.
The TRUTH of beni is within the skin. It is the skin type that holds the beni and defines whether beni is first, one dimensional and second what genetics is likely linked to that type of skin. The very best beni is rarely found on terrible skin. And the best skin usually carries a good quality of beni. This is the reality of genetics.

So look at a fish and decide what grade of skin you are looking at. Is it hard or soft, is it make or female, is it translucent or opaque? Is it silky or cotton like?
Then assess the beni for it's nature, is it one coat of thick red/red chromatophore type? Is the type of beni of a mix of chromatophores that is known to finish well over time or very soon? Is the mix of chromatophores blessed with clear luster cells as well as color cells?

Then and only then, move onto stages of development and signs of failure in that development.

The three tests for weak beni ( and you can not tell for sure from a photo ) are:

*The spread of the color on both the TOP and BOTTOM of the scales,
*The depth of the color as hinted at by sashi and deeper colored 'stars' within the beni plate located at the heart of each scale. As the skin on a young fish thickens naturally this is resolved.
* Indications of separation at the kiwa suggesting weak or ungathered beni. This must be viewed however, not as a universal truth but rather as an area of suspicion, as only the breeder knows for sure how his young develop typically at each stage.

But as I said above, the perspective of understanding the whole fish and it;s general grade will go a long way into interpreting kiwa and sashi evidence.

the fish in the picture is of a harder white ( very attractive for today however) and reasonably thick single coat of beni. And because it is one coat and will tighten as the fish grows, the blur might likely resolve itself. But being one coat is more the risk if there is one than that particular blur. Just too young to tell if it is an indicator or not. Obviously, it would be wiser to avoid such things if possible but if the fish is finshing on the other steps ( and I think it is as this fish is already 75% finished) I think it will make it with a full pattern in tact.
having said that, the beni is a beni best viewed on young fish and I don't suspect it has a super future. The details then of the kiwa are what you'd might expect from this grade ( as there are no perfect fish), I think this fish could show well against competition in the average koi show with normal competition ( mostly do to an ideal pattern for this age group). But I would not look at this fish as a long term tategoi.. JR

[gcuss]

Ok, wow. That's a lot of great information. Thank you to everyone.

I guess I'll "come out" sorta speak. Where I originally noticed this was on my own Kohaku that I just got not too long ago. I paid a pretty good dollar for it and was ashamed of myself for not noticing it at the dealers. I've only been at this for about a year, but I still like to think I'm getting better, and tried my very best to look at all aspects of the fish before purchase. Confirmation, skin, color, fin size and symmetry and of course depth of the beni and colour as well... however, I didn't notice the kiwa at the tail stop until I had him bowled up the other day, took some pictures and had a closer look at everything in the photos....

Here he/she is.

Sakai of Hiroshima kohaku.
Tosai
13" long.

Note: In person the color is even front to back. The flash on the camera does funny things....

Grant

[JasPR]

Ok , you seem to be aware that this fish is possibly male. I say possibly because the shape is so male like, but the skin and beni as well as the fin shape say female? Time will certainly tell ( this next year you will know for sure) . But that is imortant as as the skin becomes mature, sexual orientation will help with predictions.
There are two posts on this fish that suggest a change in the pattern. One is in the tail area and the other is on the left side just above the lateral line.

But here is something else for you to consider--

Pattern is more than just the spin of the genetic roulette wheel. Pattern types are of a refined or primitive form. The first koi you posted as a more refined and unstable pieball form than YOUR fish. You fish has a primitive pattern which is more associated with jumbo genetics and is also by it's nature a more stable beni. This is not a comment on beni quality mind you, but a comment about beni stability.
The genetic reason behind this is that pieball or pied pattern is how we get the dorsal stepped pattern. Inazumi patterns, wrapped big patterns etc are a result of a spreading white gene over a base color. And that makes for a stable beni as the white modifying gene is not as strong as in a try pied gene. - JR

[Lam Nguyen]

OK, you lost me JR. Dang, the info you presented are for the advanced graduate level KOI 665 college class, and I am only at the entry level KOI 101, you know the ones reserved for incoming freshmen. Do you know where I can buy the textbook for KOI 445 so I can learn all this stuff or does it just come from experience? Most of the koi books that I have don't really discuss in depth the things that you discussed here and I am very interested in more advanced learning.